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Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor

Posted by slidewayswrx 
slidewayswrx
Patrick Darrow
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Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 20, 2012 10:29PM
So after some prodding I have decided to finally post a build log here so that I might learn something now and others might in the future. I didn’t feel this was necessary when the car was just a rallyx beater but now that we are taking the big steps to a full stage build, the effort will be worth it.

So what has gone on up to this point?

I have a much more detailed build log of the progress up to this point over at: http://forums.dirtydrifters.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12 It’s a bit chopped up as we changed websites awhile ago and the thread was copied from the old site.

The short of it is that the car was a 1981 Volvo 242 B21F with a ipd VX cam. Shit Brown no dash no interior. Purchased in April of ’06 for $300.



An older pic after I swapped to the newer bumpers and euro turns signal lenses.

Some of the other relevant things done since purchase include:
-Deleted mechanical, clutch type fan, replaced with e-fan with adj thermostat
-wheel/axle bearings all the way around
-Welded 4.27 rear, up from stock, open 3.41


-JVAB Group A inverted Bilstein coilovers w/ 350lb springs
-Boxed lower control arms
-Mazda GenII Rx7 Turbo II calipers -New ball joints
-Volvo 740T 11.25" vented rotors
-Poly front control arm bushings
-Braided SS brake lines front and rear
-Replaced e-brake cables and pads
- Gathered 10 15" Volvo Sirius wheels
-Installed dash and cluster w/ tach, glove box replaced with 3/8" hd plastic w/ bracing behind it to mount maplight and rally computer
-Removal of sound insulation, ~ 40 lbs
-treatment of surface rust, prep and paint interior
-Relocated battery to passenger side, rear
-OMP WRC steering wheel and adapter hub
-Converted front end to flat hood w/ single rounds, hella H4s 90 low 120 high
-Updated to newer, lighter plastic bumpers
- hood pins

Also started working on getting together all of the needed safety equipment. Including a nice set of Cobra Imola S seats that Barrett at All Wheels Driven hooked me up with. Unfortunately one of these met its demise when the FX-16 went up in flames at Idaho.

Other safety items on hand:
-2 G-force 5 point, cam lock, harnesses
-Terraphone pro intercom system (back up)/ Peltor 120 intercom
-2 Safety triangles, 1 more needed
- 25' emergency tow rope
- 18” gooseneck map light
- Alfa Pro rally computer

Some other bits that have been sourced
-B23f donor motor and accessories
-Borg Warner T5 WC, tag number 1352-169, form a 86.5-89 Mustang 5.0. Rated to 265 lb/ft of torque with an input shaft length of 7.18, diameter of 0.668 in. The input shaft length is of particular importance for use w/ the redblock.

Gearing:
1st 3.35, 2nd 1.93, 3rd 1.29, 4th 1.00, 5th 0.68, R 3.15
This is in comparison to the m46 garbage truck ratios of:
1st 4.03, 2nd 2.16, 3rd 1.37, 4th 1.00, 5th 0.79, R 3.68


-Avalanche Performance adapter plate
-Steeda Tri-ax shifter
-JV is also providing one of his 15 lb flywheels, clutch disc, and pressure plate.

Havin a blast


So I think this brings us up to the major stuff that we have just gotten into. I’ll make that my next post.



Zap zap my ass...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2012 11:11PM by slidewayswrx.
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slidewayswrx
Patrick Darrow
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 20, 2012 11:32PM
Over the summer JV got me the rear coil overs


And William at TSS Fab supplied me with a kit for the four link


At the end of the summer I strip the car to a rolling shell and trailered it over to Blake Lind's (sidewaez) shop


It was then placed on the rotisserie


The plotting commenced


And then we let the sparks fly


Boxes placed




Zap zap my ass...
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slidewayswrx
Patrick Darrow
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 20, 2012 11:52PM
We then shifted focus to the axle. We will be fabricating our own pan hard bar but wanted to continue to use the same heims and spacers that william provided with the four link kit. So after a SHORT phone conversation, William had enough pieces in the mail for the pan hard, and 1 fully set up spare for another pan hard and 1 upper, and 1 lower link.

The old mounting tabs were ground off, while trying to maintain the e-brake cable mounts


The axle ground clean and new ears being placed


after tacking the ears into place its time for a test fit


And thats were we sit now. The joints, spacers, etc should be here in the next few days and we start work on the pan hard bar and the towers. Also the front suspension will get sent back to JVL for new longer inserts, softer springs and valving.

This build is far more than I could ever achieve on my own so I have to thank, not only the knowledge and motivation that the board brings, but also the tight knit group that is the Dirty Drifters. Blake and Kyle have been helping a lot recently but there are a handful of others as well that have given tons and asked nothing in return. This kind of comradery not only kicks ass but it makes rally the great sport that it is.

So now that we are up to speed expect me to be in here asking questions. I only want to do this once and I want it to be right.



Zap zap my ass...
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Jon
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 09:19AM
Great build up so far, all the right bits for having a reliable rally car.

-Jon
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phlat65
Sean Medcroft
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 09:57AM
I am very jelous of your group down there, it is what I wish we had up here.

Can't wait to battle!
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slidewayswrx
Patrick Darrow
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 10:05AM
First question? Trying to find pics of Volvo's with the four link and towers. anyone know of some other than Ian and Charles' builds?

How about how to go about figuring out what master cylinders to use? Going dual, no assist.

Thanks for the help



Zap zap my ass...
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Alex Staidle
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 10:11AM
very cool!



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sidewaez
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 11:06AM
Quote
phlat65
I am very jelous of your group down there, it is what I wish we had up here.

You guys do have a good group up there you just need a good team name!
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 11:59AM
Quote
slidewayswrx
First question? Trying to find pics of Volvo's with the four link and towers. anyone know of some other than Ian and Charles' builds?

How about how to go about figuring out what master cylinders to use? Going dual, no assist.

Thanks for the help

Look more for Ford piccies.

Masters depends on the calipers..note that when Kevin and I pulled off the booster, the RX7 calipers were suddenly not adequate. So we invented a nice kit for Superlites and a bigger rotor.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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slidewayswrx
Patrick Darrow
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 12:22PM
We should be able to compensate for the lack of booster with the amount of hydraulic pressure (master cylinder size) that we use. Correct? Brakes have been gone through once and I'd rather not do that again. After a bit of research I beleive the Rx7 front Calipers to have a bore size of 1.38"
And this is the info I found for the Volvo rear brakes and master cylinder sizes:
Master Cylinder Diameters
Primary ..................................... .88 (22.3)
Secondary .................................. .62 (15.75)
Rear Brake Caliper Pistons (ATE) ................ 1.5 (38) in In. (mm)

Something does not sound right there. Would that be a per piston measurement? Giving almost 4x the total cylinder size in the front?


I'll look for more ford pics but that isn't quite as helpful when trying to figure out box and tower placement, etc. Are the swedes not doing this for the Volvos they are building. If not then why are we?



Zap zap my ass...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2012 01:18PM by slidewayswrx.
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MeCalledEvan
Evan Horner
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 07:40PM
Correct. Depending on your desired pedal force and travel, MC bore size can compensate for lack of a brake booster. The smaller the MC diameter is, the more braking force you will create per force on the pedal and pedal travel. You should be able to get the right amount of force for the FC calipers, though after removing that booster, your pedal will forever feel like stomping on a brick wall (which I personally prefer, to be honest).

I've created a couple braking force calculators on Excel. One is for a dual MC Formula SAE car application (harder to use unless you know your CG height, as well as sprung and unsprung mass), and the other is for a full-sized car (single MC, but could be easily modified for dual MC, [which I may be doing for a school project this evening]). Shoot me your email and I'll send them to you if you want. That way you can dial in what Master Cylinder you will need.



"The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know and have so much more to learn." - Claude Rouelle, Optimum G lecture June, 2011
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slidewayswrx
Patrick Darrow
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 09:28PM
Thanks Evan that would be awesome!

Pm sent.
Pat



Zap zap my ass...
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MeCalledEvan
Evan Horner
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 11:18PM
By the way, it's mid-quarter in school, so my brain sucks lately and I typed that reversed from what I was trying to say.

What I meant to say was:
A smaller MC bore will create higher braking force at the caliper for amount of input at the pedal, ie a softer pedal and more pedal travel.
Conversely, a larger MC bore will displace more fluid for amount of pedal travel. This means that the input force needs to be greater for the same amount of braking force as the smaller MC. This is the stiffer pedal or "brick wall" I mentioned previously.

When you set this up with a dual MC, you have your smaller MC for the front brakes and larger for the rear. When the brake pedal is depressed, the bias bar displaces each MC a different amount. When you adjust the bias bar, you're having it displace each MC, but more importantly, the rear MC more or less to create more or less rear braking force per input pedal force/displacement.

I'm making my calculator more understandable to someone who didn't write it and will email it to you this evening.



"The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know and have so much more to learn." - Claude Rouelle, Optimum G lecture June, 2011
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MeCalledEvan
Evan Horner
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 21, 2012 11:42PM
P.S. Anyone else who would like a copy of this, PM me your email address and I'll share the love.



"The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know and have so much more to learn." - Claude Rouelle, Optimum G lecture June, 2011
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Grant Hughes
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 22, 2012 10:56AM
Cosworth (Paul) is the best person to talk to about sizing master cylinders.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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slidewayswrx
Patrick Darrow
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 25, 2012 08:48PM
So with the r&p and gear ratios listed above, on a 27" diameter tire, with a red line of 6500 this would be my given top speeds:

1st-36, 2nd-63, 3rd-94, 4th-122, 5th-179.

You all think this is adequate or too tall? Wear and tear on the tranny to be used is unknown but a rebuild and new gear set was not planned.



Zap zap my ass...
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 25, 2012 09:49PM
Quote
slidewayswrx


1st-36, 2nd-63, 3rd-94, 4th-122, 5th-179.

You all think this is adequate or too tall?

Be perfect for...




Quote
Morison
[jvl] Ohh noooohs! There's an h'off tawpik thread in the gent-urinal dick-cushion four-hum. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!![/jvl]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2012 09:51PM by RallyTaco.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 25, 2012 10:52PM
Quote
RallyTaco
Quote
slidewayswrx


1st-36, 2nd-63, 3rd-94, 4th-122, 5th-179.

You all think this is adequate or too tall?

Be perfect for...
Typical stages 1st thru 4th, and normal leisurely cruise on highways --as in transits ----in 5th.



John Vanlandingham
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 25, 2012 11:49PM
Yeah, what John said. We use 5th ger maybe 3 or 4 times per rally, and hate it... gear for 120mph terminal speed. Gear set for that diff is cheap!
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 26, 2012 11:01PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Typical stages 1st thru 4th, and normal leisurely cruise on highways --as in transits ----in 5th.

Ok but usually you are all...

Quote
john vanlandingham
And who needs 4.10? Going to Bonneville?

Or does nobody understand how short gearing in the 4.88 to 5.15 range works?
like from this thread

I understand without a perfect gear set you can make 1st gear useless by gearing the R&P numerically higher after a certain point but 180mph in 5th for a ground up rally build? Really? Those gaps seam kinda big for an NA engine too no?

Just curiously asking from the keyboard only peanut gallery and trying to clarify. Not looking to start a shit storm.



Quote
Morison
[jvl] Ohh noooohs! There's an h'off tawpik thread in the gent-urinal dick-cushion four-hum. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!![/jvl]
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alkun
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 27, 2012 11:08AM
Quote
RallyTaco
Quote
john vanlandingham
Typical stages 1st thru 4th, and normal leisurely cruise on highways --as in transits ----in 5th.

Ok but usually you are all...

Quote
john vanlandingham
And who needs 4.10? Going to Bonneville?

Or does nobody understand how short gearing in the 4.88 to 5.15 range works?
like from this thread

I understand without a perfect gear set you can make 1st gear useless by gearing the R&P numerically higher after a certain point but 180mph in 5th for a ground up rally build? Really? Those gaps seam kinda big for an NA engine too no?

Just curiously asking from the keyboard only peanut gallery and trying to clarify. Not looking to start a shit storm.

You are right, those gaps are wide for NA, but Pat is building thorbo, so they are just right-ish.

The idea is that 5th gear is just for transit on the freeway, 180mph at redline means easy freeway cruising at 3000rpm. I used to have the 4 speed with the nowhere near low enough 4.10 gears. Driving on the freeway near redline really sucked, after 20 miles there was blood coming out my ears, like those long highway transits at North Nevada where the speed limit is 70 mph. Now I have a T5 with 4.88 gears, the same motor that wouldn't pull in third gets used in 4th on stage, and I can drive all day on the freeway.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 27, 2012 12:03PM
Quote
alkun
Quote
RallyTaco
Quote
john vanlandingham
Typical stages 1st thru 4th, and normal leisurely cruise on highways --as in transits ----in 5th.

Ok but usually you are all...

Quote
john vanlandingham
And who needs 4.10? Going to Bonneville?

Or does nobody understand how short gearing in the 4.88 to 5.15 range works?
like from this thread

I understand without a perfect gear set you can make 1st gear useless by gearing the R&P numerically higher after a certain point but 180mph in 5th for a ground up rally build? Really? Those gaps seam kinda big for an NA engine too no?

Just curiously asking from the keyboard only peanut gallery and trying to clarify. Not looking to start a shit storm.

You are right, those gaps are wide for NA, but Pat is building thorbo, so they are just right-ish.

The idea is that 5th gear is just for transit on the freeway, 180mph at redline means easy freeway cruising at 3000rpm. I used to have the 4 speed with the nowhere near low enough 4.10 gears. Driving on the freeway near redline really sucked, after 20 miles there was blood coming out my ears, like those long highway transits at North Nevada where the speed limit is 70 mph. Now I have a T5 with 4.88 gears, the same motor that wouldn't pull in third gets used in 4th on stage, and I can drive all day on the freeway.


Gawd what a whiner!
I drove from Seattle to Pincher Creek Alberta via the EAST side of Glacier National Park in Montana---820 miles one way with 5.45:1 final drive.
Did a 7th overall in my first National and a blindingly fast one at that, then drove back via Banff...

Don't see me complaining (except when I can't hear...whaaaaaaaaaa?)



John Vanlandingham
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slidewayswrx
Patrick Darrow
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 27, 2012 12:13PM
so both John and Al don't think I am too far off. Am I getting that correct? In the future, like after they break, I would probably look at the 2.95 gear set for the t5 and maybe a 4.56 for the Dana. Until that time though it looks like I'm good-ish.

Sometimes I feel like I'm playing pin the tail on donkey during this build.



Zap zap my ass...
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 27, 2012 12:16PM
Quote
slidewayswrx
so both John and Al don't think I am too far off. Am I getting that correct? In the future, like after they break, I would probably look at the 2.95 gear set for the t5 and maybe a 4.56 for the Dana. Until that time though it looks like I'm good-ish.

Sometimes I feel like I'm playing pin the tail on donkey during this build.

No you're right on. And good future plan too----though 4.56 might be a tad short ....i think 4.3 to 4.4 a little more turbo friendly (remember we're going make that a kick ass mid range motor)



John Vanlandingham
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 28, 2012 05:35PM
Quote
alkun
You are right, those gaps are wide for NA, but Pat is building thorbo, so they are just right-ish.

My bad I skimmed back but missed the part about the snail.



Quote
Morison
[jvl] Ohh noooohs! There's an h'off tawpik thread in the gent-urinal dick-cushion four-hum. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!![/jvl]
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slidewayswrx
Patrick Darrow
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 28, 2012 06:52PM
Thats because I haven't spoken too much about the turd-blo as I have yet to receive my exemption. Fingers crossed.



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sidewaez
Blake Lind
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 28, 2012 07:55PM
Hey Pat you wanna work on this thing tomorrow, lets say 5:00 pm?
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alkun
Albert Kun
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
February 29, 2012 01:54PM
Quote
slidewayswrx
Thats because I haven't spoken too much about the turd-blo as I have yet to receive my exemption. Fingers crossed.

Dammit! I just gotta learn to shut up.

I just meant that you were going turbo, the same way we are all eventually headed there, driven by the same primal force that made the first sasquatch roll that first boulder down a hill...

Pat, If you want, I'll write an expert witness letter about how a NA volvo is so painfully slow, its actually more dangerous.
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slidewayswrx
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
March 06, 2012 10:12AM
Al, no worries about the turd-blo. It is not a secret that I am going that route but always easier to ask for forgiveness later, right.

So a bit of progress last night and we will continue chipping away at it again tonight. Seems continue to be ground clean and stitch welded. I would say that step is about 1/4 complete, lots of seams.

We also made the plunge and decided to take the internal seat structure out of the cabin.



It was a much bigger pita than we had expected but it also freed up a ton of space and will allow us to place the seats where we like.

The boxes are now almost entirely welded into place. We have also incorporated some little skid plate gussets.



Then some time was spent trimming and blending the sides of the boxes.



Things are going well. Just got to keep plugging away!



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Swedish Endeavors: Project Rally Tractor
March 06, 2012 10:59AM
Looks good tavarich.



John Vanlandingham
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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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