Who do these goons AKA Rally America think they are

Anders Green Wrote:
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> Randy knows Sandblast is here, He just doesn't like
> the sand with his 2.5.

Zimmer!
Did you ever think about putting a H6 in there like Anders did? Brilliant idea Anders.

Carl S Wrote:

> I know Randy
> says 75% or more of all RA roads suck even though
> he's never competed on them,

Thats not true, Randy has done at least half of the current national RA events back when they were SCCA rallies.

ahh, ok, just read the link posted over on SS.


SOOO, this isn't nearly as bad as everyone is making it out to be. First of all, this does NOT affect spectators taking pictures, joe-blow photographer or even semi-pro joe blow photographer.

This does NOT affect (nor is it directed at) any in car cams, etc.

this is for real media and commercial photographers/videographers. People who WILL use their photos in magazines, articles, videos, whatever.

Now that I understand the context, I actually like this line:

"Still images and footage may not be used for any commercial or retail purposes whatsoever, and may only be used for promotional purposes upon written permission of Rally America and the athlete(s) depicted in such image(s). "

And here's why.....lets pretend, its some random rally, and one of you boot-strap racing team guys takes a spectacular spill off an exposed corner, flips a few times, and its all caught on tape.

Now, what if its caught on tape by some guy that works for a company that puts out rally videos...is currently producing a rally crash video, and your crash makes the cut. The DVD's go out...and they start making money.

wouldn't you want to have some say in that? Wouldn't you want a cut of someone making some cash off your crash? (didn't mean for the rhyme, but I like it...)

The way I read this, and the 'media' context that this is presented in, IMO, this does not affect the average joe. This its not about any of you posting your photos wherever you want, posting videos on youtube or whatever.

Its too bad everyone on SS is getting all amped up about it for the wrong reason. Unless I'm missing something...

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

CommanderSalamander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carl S Wrote:
>
> > I know Randy
> > says 75% or more of all RA roads suck even
> though
> > he's never competed on them,
>
> Thats not true, Randy has done at least half of
> the current national RA events back when they were
> SCCA rallies.


Well I was just going off of what Randy said earlier in this thread.
"Because I never entered one of their events (save Maine w/dual sanction)"
But that part of my post was mostly a joke anyways because I think its ridiculous and the roads used have nothing to do with the sanctioning body.


Mark Wrote:
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> if enough organizers feel a pinch about something
> i would think that something would have to change.
> i'm not saying that that's a good thing, but like
> others have said, if enough organizers can't put
> on events through r-a, it would only leave r-a
> with the x-games.
>
> -Mark
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net

The thing to do there would be to contact the organizers of rallies that you decided not to attend because of their sanctioning body alignment and tell them that you're not entering because of that fact. Otherwise all they can do is guess as to why their entries are lower. But with communication from would-be competitors they can learn what they need to improve on and if it would be worth it to make some changes.

Carl,
Hi!
Yeah, never did LSPR, Olympus, or Colorado.
Sure, starting out with CT in '01 as my first set an impossible standard, it took a long time to get impressed with a road system after that rally.
I just can't forget waiting for an early stage in MN when a buzz was going around, "this is the stage with the jump!"
Turns out it was a bump our little car didn't even bounce over.
Most of our little regional CDN roads put whole SCCA (now RA) Nationals to shame.

I've heard LSPR is fun, but from guys who never ran my favorite roads so I can't compare experiences. I'd like to go someday
but not with a medical kit I have no idea how to use,
a fuel port to check fuel my NA car can't cheat with,
a neck brace that costs half my annual budget
and now I can't share my in-car from it or get pics from my friends.
I got snubbed and marginalized at Maine and I'll never forget it.
I'll enter where I'm welcomed.

oh yeah, RA isn't a real sanctioning body, just a gang.

Everyone relax. I just talked to RA and what they've agreed is to let us drive vvvveeeerrryyyy slowly past the spectator areas so that the spectators can draw a picture.

Jon Burke Wrote:
> SOOO, this isn't nearly as bad as everyone is
> making it out to be. First of all, this does NOT
> affect spectators taking pictures, joe-blow
> photographer or even semi-pro joe blow
> photographer.

So this doesn't affect my good friend Kevin Hahn who went on his own dime as a semi-pro photog that worked freelance and sold his pictures to competitors and magazines. Oh wait. Yes it does. He can't go anymore without a valid editorial contract and he can't use the pictures for anything but that.

> This does NOT affect (nor is it directed at) any
> in car cams, etc.

Use you imagination. It doesn't take too much more to go there. PPIHC did already this year!

> this is for real media and commercial
> photographers/videographers. People who WILL use
> their photos in magazines, articles, videos,
> whatever.

That are on an assignment only and only for that particular use. No more rally photos online.

> Now that I understand the context, I actually like
> this line:
>
> "Still images and footage may not be used for any
> commercial or retail purposes whatsoever, and may
> only be used for promotional purposes upon written
> permission of Rally America and the athlete(s)
> depicted in such image(s). "
>
> And here's why.....lets pretend, its some random
> rally, and one of you boot-strap racing team guys
> takes a spectacular spill off an exposed corner,
> flips a few times, and its all caught on tape.
>
> Now, what if its caught on tape by some guy that
> works for a company that puts out rally
> videos...is currently producing a rally crash
> video, and your crash makes the cut. The DVD's go
> out...and they start making money.
> wouldn't you want to have some say in that?
> Wouldn't you want a cut of someone making some
> cash off your crash? (didn't mean for the rhyme,
> but I like it...)

Absolutely not. They spent the money and effort to go film. You should be stoked that someone caught it on tape.

> The way I read this, and the 'media' context that
> this is presented in, IMO, this does not affect
> the average joe. This its not about any of you
> posting your photos wherever you want, posting
> videos on youtube or whatever.
>
> Its too bad everyone on SS is getting all amped up
> about it for the wrong reason. Unless I'm missing
> something...

You are missing everything. Everywhere. Here, rallycross, stage rally, clubs, etc.
Ever even been to a stage rally? We didn't invent 'Navy Seal' spectating for no reason after Rally America started the spectator area rules. Not to mention the lame yellow tape that prevent anything resembling quality sots.

---

Grant Hughes

So...

I said what I have to say on the other forums but I am a glutton for punishment so here goes.



point by point breakdown:

RA:All credentialed media must be on editorial assignment. All applicants for media credentials must provide a letter of assignment from a verifiable media outlet on company letterhead upon submission of his/her application.

A verifiable media outlet is one which appears in a recognized media database, such as Burrelle’s/Luce, Cision (formerly Bacon’s Information) or VOCUS.

Please note: Production companies shooting on spec and freelance photographers who are unable to produce a letter of assignment will not be granted credentials.



90% of the people shooting at rallies, especially the guys that try to support more than one team, are all freelancers. Without finagling a credential request from an editor (a decent number of which couldn't give a rats ass as long as it won't cost them money, making the whole process a joke) a photographer can't gain full stage access to be able to get quality shots without going navy seal. This severely limits the number of shooters that will even be able to get to the stages, and concentrate those that do to the shooters with interest in the first 10 or so cars.



Photography is for editorial use only. Any other use, including but not limited to commercial and promotional use, is expressly prohibited and strictly enforced.


As a photographer I cannot use any team or person's likeness in the commercial selling of a product (by entering a public event you qualify as celebrity which gives me release to sell your images in a purely editorial context, but for commercial purposes I need your permission). RA has no business telling me how I can and cannot use authorized photos, I own the copyright, unless I am violating a commercial conduct code I should be able to do as I please.



Still images and footage may not be used for any commercial or retail purposes whatsoever, and may only be used for promotional purposes upon written permission of Rally America and the athlete(s) depicted in such image(s).


This is a no brainer if you were talking just about teams (it is also sad that it needs to be said but thats a different discussion). BUT if Nokian calls me up and wants to use a photo of someone running on their tires in an advertisement all that should be required is said driver's permission. The whole BS of having to get RA's permission (when RA holds public events) after securing the permission of the entrant wreaks of an artificial control and a money grab.





The outrage comes not from the regulations not being reasonable (they would be reasonable if rally was a full fledged national sport with real commercial interest and value) but from the fact that the rules are a commercial knee jerk and a money grab that will shut down the freelancer whose sole purpose is to promote the sport and support the teams.

The fact that a team, not just the photographer, will have to count on RA's permission to be able to buy photos is completely retarded.



The last guideline is the one that has the potential biggest impact on teams though:

Streaming of any and all video is strictly prohibited in all circumstances. Streaming rights are the exclusive property of Rally America.

While there is nothing that says competitors will be prohibited from streaming their own video, there hasn't been a single event with these rules in place. This media guideline sets a first right of use precedent for RA in which case streaming will be prohibited until after a TV broadcast, if ever permitted.

For a sport with only 10-12 drivers in its "premier" championship with enough financial support to not be paying more than 20% of the bills these types of guidelines are severe overkill.


Never mind the fact that a variety of different sources seem to imply that it will be the secret buddy back room BS that will get people through the process and that these guidelines are just to keep the unwanted out while nothing will actually change. Why the hell do they need the BS if they aren't going to change things when the reality is that RA has always had the ability to deny a credential request to the unwanted from the beginning.

The whole thing stinks and makes me glad that the majority of my time and resources were going to working on growing the Colorado Rally Cup before this BS was announced.

In the course of an email conversation with someone today about my decision to withdraw support from any RA event, some of my comments were apparently passed along to Mr. Niday. As the person to whom I was speaking was civil and understanding of my feelings from square one, I will not release the name, but I was provided with this quote, regarding my referring to this latest measure as a media "lockdown."

JB:
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> "Media "lockdown" I don't understand that language. Ask Danny Sullivan if every person with a camera gets photo credentials at IRL or Champ Car events. If someone is shooting for a legit media outlet; then they're in... if they aren't then they need to stay in the spectator areas. Simple."

I almost go cross-eyed every time I read those words. Do you mean the multiple spectator areas at each event which RallyAmerica encourages (and helps) its organizers to set up and police? Oh wait. Those won't exist until rally is completely under RA's thumb and has been conveniently shoehorned into stadiums alongside super-motard.

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

"You are missing everything. Everywhere. Here, rallycross, stage rally, clubs, etc.
Ever even been to a stage rally? "


so perhaps I am. Hey, I'm in Denver for the next 6 days, wanna grab a beer?

PM sent!

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

"So this doesn't affect my good friend Kevin Hahn who went on his own dime as a semi-pro photog that worked freelance and sold his pictures to competitors and magazines. Oh wait. Yes it does. He can't go anymore without a valid editorial contract and he can't use the pictures for anything but that. "

if you hire him, why would it? he has your exclusive permission.

If he's selling individuals photo's back to those same individuals, he has their permission, so same situation.

If he's selling it to a magazine, he better have the permission of the competitor...forget RA, that's just basic photo business.

Yeah, maybe he won't get the 'reserved' spots, but no one seemed to care when I set up my camera at the last Grand Prix event I was at.


"Absolutely not. They spent the money and effort to go film. You should be stoked that someone caught it on tape. "

huh....and you don't spend a lot of money on your car? and then lose that money when you crash?

someone caught it on tape? yeah....cool. made the local new? even better.
someone making a lot of money off that w/o your permission? uhhh...not cool.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Jon Burke Wrote:
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> Yeah, maybe he won't get the 'reserved' spots, but
> no one seemed to care when I set up my camera at
> the last Grand Prix event I was at.

reserved spots is retarded. some of the best shots i've ever seen were taken by someone in a spot i thought wouldn't make a good photo. is r-a going to send out photographer assistants or something? and the fact that no one cared for you doesn't mean that next time they won't and that's such a huge part of the problem i'm just baffled when people don't get that. it's setting a bad precedent or the possiblity for one at a later date. if they don't enforce it right away but do later on they can always say that it's been a rule forever and someone should know better.

> "Absolutely not. They spent the money and effort
> to go film. You should be stoked that someone
> caught it on tape. "
>
> huh....and you don't spend a lot of money on your
> car? and then lose that money when you crash?

not sure where you are going with this.

> someone caught it on tape? yeah....cool. made
> the local new? even better.
> someone making a lot of money off that w/o your
> permission? uhhh...not cool.
>
> Jon Burke

correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't there already laws governing usage of things such as this. and by your logic, if rally-america air's your car in one of their shows, shouldn't you be entitled to a part of the proceeds?

i'm with grant, if someone catches me on any type of film driving amazing or really stupid, i'm glad that atleast they caught it.

one of my friends ran pikes peak last year and he said he had to sign away all his rights to posting his incar online similar to what r-a is saying here.

several of my fellow friends and competitors are photographers ranging from amateur to professional. they've supported me, and i support them. these new rules are horrible.

---

-Mark
www.nocoastmotorsports.net

Mark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jon Burke Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah, maybe he won't get the 'reserved'
> spots, but
> > no one seemed to care when I set up my camera
> at
> > the last Grand Prix event I was at.
>
> reserved spots is retarded. some of the best shots
> i've ever seen were taken by someone in a spot i
> thought wouldn't make a good photo. is r-a going
> to send out photographer assistants or something?
> and the fact that no one cared for you doesn't
> mean that next time they won't and that's such a
> huge part of the problem i'm just baffled when
> people don't get that. it's setting a bad
> precedent or the possiblity for one at a later
> date. if they don't enforce it right away but do
> later on they can always say that it's been a rule
> forever and someone should know better.

yeah, I dunno, I feel like you're splitting hairs....I've brought my camera set up to plenty of professional sporting events, and no one says jack. Actually, what pro sports event DON't allow spectators to take pictures?

And when i say 'reserved spots', I'm just saying I wasn't able to get down on the 1 yard line with my zoom lens at the last 49's game I was at cause I didn't have a 'press pass'.

>
> > "Absolutely not. They spent the money and
> effort
> > to go film. You should be stoked that
> someone
> > caught it on tape. "
> >
> > huh....and you don't spend a lot of money on
> your
> > car? and then lose that money when you
> crash?
>
> not sure where you are going with this.

oh, grant was just saying that they spent a lot of money to get there, get the video, etc...I just said, well, each competitor spends a lot of money on their car/getting there too.


>
> > someone caught it on tape? yeah....cool.
> made
> > the local new? even better.
> > someone making a lot of money off that w/o
> your
> > permission? uhhh...not cool.
> >
> > Jon Burke
>
> correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't there already
> laws governing usage of things such as this. and
> by your logic, if rally-america air's your car in
> one of their shows, shouldn't you be entitled to a
> part of the proceeds?

Do they sell those videos? I see that stuff as their own 'news' or promotions, and don't really make money off those. correct me if I'm wrong.

I've only seen the 'best of 2005' DVD actually for sale on their website...do you they they paid the 'pros'? I don't know, that'd be interesting to find out.

>
> i'm with grant, if someone catches me on any type
> of film driving amazing or really stupid, i'm glad
> that atleast they caught it.
> one of my friends ran pikes peak last year and he
> said he had to sign away all his rights to posting
> his incar online similar to what r-a is saying
> here.

yeahhhhh....that just plain sucks.

I guess I'm being naive thinking that RA *might* be doing this for the greater good of the sport. Because there's a cool way to do this, and a not so cool way.

The cool way would be to enforce this for the really commercial guys, whether they're making drug commercials, or whatever. And using any proceeds/deals/whatever to put towards events and make things better/cheaper for the competitors.<---apparently....pipe dream.

the 'semi-pro' and freelance guys would be left alone.

The not so cool way is what you said above (pikes peak) and a bunch of other political BS.


and YES, Grant...I've been to a rally before. I posted in that other thread I crewed for Eli at Gorman last year. Even took a bunch of spectator video, and posted it on youtube. how apprpriate for this thread




its not all that great, I didn't have access to the better locations. maybe I should have requested a press pass? haha

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

oh, mark, the beer invite goes out to you too!

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Jon Burke Wrote:

Actually, what pro sports event DON't allow
> spectators to take pictures?

For a start: hockey, baseball, basketball, football, cart, irl, nascrap, rock concerts, ad nauseum...

You want to bring your point and shoot and take photos from the spectator areas, say with flash from 120 yards away? Fine, no issues. Whip out a 600f4 and a brace of Nikons while seated in the stands, someone will start asking questions, pronto.

Photo and video rights policies are de rigeur for pretty much all organized events these days. Some of the clauses are ridiculous, over-reaching and practically unenforceable but if you read between the lines you'll see that the policy is primarily in place to allow the series to negotiate a media buy. They need to present the "illusion" of control to NBC/ABC/ESPN etc in order to secure a deal. Think how the following scenario would play in a TV executive's office -- "Yeah, sure, you can show the race on TV but all the good bits will be scooped weeks in advance by dozens of clips on YouTube..."

The secondary issue is control -- if Travis performs a spectacular eleventy seven barrel roll with a half twist while plummeting off the side of Pike's Peak, it would be mildly embarrassing for grainy video of it to end up on YouTube, it would be a freaking publicity nightmare if it was featured in the promo of Wide World Of Sports for 12 years like that poor ski jumper (and before you jump on me about Editorial vs Commercial -- the lead in to WWoS is most assuredly a commercial use).

As for the control of commercial and promotional usage killing the business opportunities for the photogs -- this one is actually a double edged sword, with five or six separate guys doing the same thing at every rally, it's not a viable business model, with one "official" event photographer it becomes, potentially, lucrative.

And...

RA will not stand in the way of teams promoting themselves or the series, the clause about them having to approve promotional stuff is a formality to keep the lawyers happy.

Cheers, Ted

---

Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec