some good roll cage buidling guides

Maybe this will help you Lina, As far as I know this is the minimum you need. Most people add more tubes between the backstays, and "x"s in the door bars.

http://www.rally-america.com/info/2008_Rollcage.pdf

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fliz
OK. I still don't quite understand how the whole "homologated car" thing works.

Does the 7 year expiration come into play, also?

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251.2.1.7
Homologation of a series-produced car will become null and void 7
years after the date on which the series-production of the said
model has been stopped (series-production under 10 % of the
minimum production of the group considered)

The now 7 year rule forces MFGs to field newer cars, otherwise the field would still be filled with rwd Escorts.
Or Escort Cosworths which, as we saw this year in the concurrently run Swedish national Championship round, are still perfectly capable of top results more than 12 years after any development stopped.... (Mats Jonsson, former WRC Sweden winner in the 90s, and now well past his "sell by" date and no spring chicken was doing top 5 times if he was in the WRC part of the event. Considering how rutted the surface gets, that's impressive indeed.) It was for most of history a 5 year rule.

But that means the car is ineligible for participation in INTERNATIONALLY listed events such as WRC, ERC...... Some countries National rules mean you park the car and lose a $100,000+ investment.
Some allow the car to continue rallying but it must be built to and with the Homologation form.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Rally America 5.5.A.2 - Safety cages that meet the specifications (for new homologations) of
current FIA Appendix J Article 253, which requires CDS tubing.
Refer to the following FIA web site for the current version of this
document.

IE. Must be built to the newest homologation specification regardless.
NRS may allow old homologations, I do not know and am not familiar with their ruleset as I only look at the most stringent and widely accepted rule set.
QED. Main hoops are required.

Let's go further with 8.3.2.1.1 from FIA Article 253 Appendix J
Cars homologated as from 01.01.2002 :
The cage must have two diagonal members on the main rollbar
according to Drawing 253-7.
Members must be straight and may be removable.

I don't recall so much stuff be able to be removable in cages though...

And since I'm reviewing them now...
What I recommended is.
Main Design:
253-3
253-7 (w/in 100mm of junctions/cage feet)

Side protection:
253-8 and 253-9
The side protection must be as high as possible, but its upper
attachment point must not be higher than half the height of the
door opening measured from its base.
If these upper attachment points are located in front of or behind
the door opening, this height limitation is also valid for the
corresponding intersection of the strut and the door opening.

Any interpretations on this?

Quote

In the case of doorbars in the form of an "X" (Drawing 253-9), it is
recommended that the lower attachment points of the cross-struts
be fixed directly onto the longitudinal member of the
bodyshell/chassis and that at least one part of the "X" be a singlepiece
bar.

Roof Bars:
253-14
The ends of the reinforcements must be less than 100 mm from
the junction between rollbars and members (not applicable to the
top of the V formed by reinforcements in Drawings 253-13 and
253-14).

A-pillar reinforcement:
253-15
It may be bent on condition that it is straight in side view and that
the angle of the bend does not exceed 20°.
Its upper end must be less than 100 mm from the junction between
the front (lateral) rollbar and the longitudinal (transverse) member
(see Drawing 253-52 for the measurement).
Its lower end must be less than 100 mm from the (front) mounting
foot of front (lateral) rollbar.

Rear:
253-22
The rear stays should also support your shock/strut top mount to some extent.
See Jon Burke's damage from Mendocino? Nevada? Sometime this year for an example of why.

That's it.
If you want, you can also do 253-17, 18, or 19. If you decide to do 21 instead of 22 you will need a different design for roof support possibly. 25, 29, and 30 are all optional as well. I like 30 for added side strength (perceived). 30 can be really car dependent and can make things like heater core removal a pain so if the stock dash bar is good, I like leaving that. Subaru GC's for example have to remove heater core to remove some wiring so if you in the future decide to do an engine swap you might find yourself destroying your heater box or having to cut out and replace that tube.

Pay ATTENTION to 253-49 and dimensions from the very start of your design/build.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2011 12:35PM by NoCoast.

Quote
NoCoast
Rally America 5.5.A.2 - Safety cages that meet the specifications (for new homologations) of
current FIA Appendix J Article 253, which requires CDS tubing.
Refer to the following FIA web site for the current version of this
document.

IE. Must be built to the newest homologation specification regardless.
NRS may allow old homologations, I do not know and am not familiar with their ruleset as I only look at the most stringent and widely accepted rule set.
QED. Main hoops are required.

You are wrong on this. It does not need to be built to meet the specifications for new homologations per RA rules. It has to be built to its homologation specifications. This per Mike H on a '96 E36 build using a SD CDS multi-point weld-in kit that is being built by a buddy.

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wvonkessler
You are wrong on this. It does not need to be built to meet the specifications for new homologations per RA rules. It has to be built to its homologation specifications. This per Mike H on a '96 E36 build using a SD CDS multi-point weld-in kit that is being built by a buddy.

Yes, they will accept it if it is a homologated cage kit, which is not building a cage but rather installing a homologated cage.
But if you are building a cage, the intent of the rule is that all constructed cages must be to newest homologation specification.
I think there was a bulletin originally that said it rather well but the wording in the rulebook is a little weird. Alan? I seem to remember it saying something like, all constructed non-homologated cages must be built to 1/1/2007 homologation or newer. Or something along that line.

Quote
wvonkessler
You are wrong on this. It does not need to be built to meet the specifications for new homologations per RA rules. It has to be built to its homologation specifications. This per Mike H on a '96 E36 build using a SD CDS multi-point weld-in kit that is being built by a buddy.

I think there is a difference between a 'home design' that falls under FIA 253 or a homologated kit. In the case of a homoligated kit the cage needs to match the shell it is going into. IE: a 2006 impreza will have a different cage than a 2008 (fairly obvious) and neither will nessicarily fit 253 on the surface but have been homologated through testing of the design.
Now: does FIA homologation of a cage kit expire at 7 years?

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NoCoast

Quote
wvonkessler
You are wrong on this. It does not need to be built to meet the specifications for new homologations per RA rules. It has to be built to its homologation specifications. This per Mike H on a '96 E36 build using a SD CDS multi-point weld-in kit that is being built by a buddy.

Yes, they will accept it if it is a homologated cage kit, which is not building a cage but rather installing a homologated cage.
But if you are building a cage, the intent of the rule is that all constructed cages must be to newest homologation specification.
I think there was a bulletin originally that said it rather well but the wording in the rulebook is a little weird. Alan? I seem to remember it saying something like, all constructed non-homologated cages must be built to 1/1/2007 homologation or newer. Or something along that line.

Yeah, there's two lines in the RA rulebook

1. Safety cages homologated by the FIA
2. Safety cages that meet the specs. (for new homologations) for FIA App. J Art. 253.

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Morison
Now: does FIA homologation of a cage kit expire at 7 years?

I don't know, but I can tell you I wouldn't even consider the homologated kits that are available for a Merkur.
I know Dave considered the kits for his E36 but wanted the higher safety standards in the newer designs so had his built.

John Cirisan can tell you how well a Subaru Impreza current spec homologated cage kit can fit into a Merkur though. And how quickly it will be rejected as legal.

You guys are making this no fun at all...

Who has a line on a homo cage for a '71 bmw 2002?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2011 07:12PM by alkun.

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wvonkessler

Quote
NoCoast
Rally America 5.5.A.2 - Safety cages that meet the specifications (for new homologations) of
current FIA Appendix J Article 253, which requires CDS tubing.
Refer to the following FIA web site for the current version of this
document.

IE. Must be built to the newest homologation specification regardless.
NRS may allow old homologations, I do not know and am not familiar with their ruleset as I only look at the most stringent and widely accepted rule set.
QED. Main hoops are required.

You are wrong on this. It does not need to be built to meet the specifications for new homologations per RA rules. It has to be built to its homologation specifications. This per Mike H on a '96 E36 build using a SD CDS multi-point weld-in kit that is being built by a buddy.

Interesting, because a year ago I contacted Mike about installing a homologated cage from Custom Cages in my 95 impreza and he said that homologation ran out and it would not pass in RA.

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wvonkessler
You are wrong on this. It does not need to be built to meet the specifications for new homologations per RA rules. It has to be built to its homologation specifications. This per Mike H on a '96 E36 build using a SD CDS multi-point weld-in kit that is being built by a buddy.

Have to be careful here. I asked about putting a Custom Cages T45 kit in my Compact and was told it wouldn't fly because it was beyond the homologation date.

I was told that you could start with a homologated cage if you added bars to bring it up to current spec...but the tubing thickness and diameters would need to meet the spec required in the 253 diagram, basically meaning the homologation had nothing to do with the cage being legal.

Dave

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DaveK

Quote
wvonkessler
You are wrong on this. It does not need to be built to meet the specifications for new homologations per RA rules. It has to be built to its homologation specifications. This per Mike H on a '96 E36 build using a SD CDS multi-point weld-in kit that is being built by a buddy.

Have to be careful here. I asked about putting a Custom Cages T45 kit in my Compact and was told it wouldn't fly because it was beyond the homologation date.

I was told that you could start with a homologated cage if you added bars to bring it up to current spec...but the tubing thickness and diameters would need to meet the spec required in the 253 diagram, basically meaning the homologation had nothing to do with the cage being legal.

Dave

God this is hopeless. Whatever else you want to say about RA, they sure as hell don't understand this "homologated cage" stuff cause they think they know everything.

Its more or less like this: You got a current 7 years or less car and you want to go in GpN or GpA or whatever now R3. You have a choice.
Buy a cage for which the cage manufacturer has submitted one to FIA to certify, then when you go to scrutineering in Estonia where even the Finns can't speak the gawddam language, the scrutineer looks at the car, looks at the certificate and grunts some unintelligible noise and you're done.

OR you build the cage according to Art 253 (like 99% do) and have it looked at and they issue a log book.

When the car's FIA homologation runs out, you enter the car in whatever NATIONAL class it fits in. Same car, same cage..

By picking and choosing this and that from the FIA spec and then never asking anybody for clarification---exactly like their absurd, insane, folly about covers for the cover for the fuel cell can---they create problems.

It's basically mid-west know-it-all culture and they ain't gonna ask some gawddayum French surrender moneys or drunken, depressed Swede nuthin.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hi, thanks for checking in with me Michel
I plan on design and building the cage personally. I am a student with access to equipment. I have taken lots of welding classes and plan on more detailed practice before the actual job starts. I have access to mittler bros hydrolic digital bender and some real nice nocher right next to it. my steel supplies arrive this week so I was hoping to start making some bends at least the main hoop - I plan on following all the rules books mentioned and carry around with me in a ring binder. I do all the work on the car myself including suspension brakes body paint... engine / head is hopefully next semester.
I very much appreciate yours and everyone else advice
Im nervous and excited about the cage build and I know not to rush or have any "good enough" moments
probably if its too tuff for me I will stop and get a pros help , but yea, every car dork out there thinks they know how to build a cage and wanna try to offer help and start spouting stupid shit about chromoly this and... well Im sure you've all heard it - dont worry I always check in with my rally friends that have actually finished races and have logged cages. you know who you are. and ive been reviewing all the rules from article 253 (2011) and appendix E rollover protection

and I plan on beating the little thing up for a limited time and then just being a total geek that drives around in a rally car around town and to shows sometimes
btw it sounds like a little hot rod, right now the interior is all gutted (exept for the old driver seat and the dash) and I still need to set the toe-in to "-1"