some good roll cage buidling guides

I actually kind of like that cage. The transverse bar is helping support the middle of the 2 half lateral roll bars witch has recently failed in a bad wreck this year. The cage pics dont do it justice it looks to be a very well built cage.

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Reamer
I actually kind of like that cage. The transverse bar is helping support the middle of the 2 half lateral roll bars witch has recently failed in a bad wreck this year. The cage pics dont do it justice it looks to be a very well built cage.

If you drive an impact into that junction on the 1/2 lateral it will just fold right in and there are now 2 welded joints near the helmet. Tubing rarely fails mid stream (other than bending) it breaks or tears near a weld.

We cannot build a cage that will protect someone in every instance, just the way it is. Drive accordingly...

The more I look your correct it probably would just bend the transverse bar. I seen another style roof x on a wrc car last week that looks to be even safer. It was more of a diamond meeting in the center of the main hoop, transverse and the half laterals. Its not pictured as an option but do you think it would fly? I have been thinking about this more because rumor has it that the half lateral did fail (tear)not near a weld.

I do accept the dangers but looking at other options not normally seen in rally may be safer. FIA is constantly changing and updating.

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Reamer
The more I look your correct it probably would just bend the transverse bar. I seen another style roof x on a wrc car last week that looks to be even safer. It was more of a diamond meeting in the center of the main hoop, transverse and the half laterals. Its not pictured as an option but do you think it would fly? I have been thinking about this more because rumor has it that the half lateral did fail (tear)not near a weld.

I do accept the dangers but looking at other options not normally seen in rally may be safer. FIA is constantly changing and updating.

No it will not fly.

FIA cage rules have been pretty solidified for 6 years with almost no changes.

Homologated cages have changed in design by the manufacturers. Approved by submitting theoretical engineering documents and analysis showing they are to some safety level. I know it seems to me that what you get more with a homologated cage is not increased safety but similar safety with less weight. And use that to sell a cage that costs 2-3X as much as a 253 shop built cage.

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NoCoast
I know it seems to me that what you get more with a homologated cage is not increased safety but similar safety with less weight. And use that to sell a cage that costs 2-3X as much as a 253 shop built cage.

Based on the last two car's I've had built, there was no where near that cost difference. If you're building/fabbing a cage yourself, I'd agree 100% with those estimates.

BMW compact FIA kit is ~$1600, probably $1800 once its shipped here (Evo IX is ~$200 more for reference). Existing shops in this area are $3500-4000 for a cage depending on complexity. If steel is currently running ~$700 for a cage, that leaves ~$1100 to cover all the labor for measuring, bending, cutting, & profiling. If you assumed a shop rate of just $50, that's only 22 hours to get all that done...seems really quick for doing a one-off.

Dave

FIA just changed the main hoop rules. Thats a pretty big recent change.I also herd they were looking at the door bars of the Mini to maybe make that the new standard.

I dont think the homologated cages are for weight as much as they are for more safety. Doesnt the FIA set the standard for minimum safety? meaning you cant do less but if you prove its safer go ahead and do more?

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Reamer
FIA just changed the main hoop rules. Thats a pretty big recent change.I also herd they were looking at the door bars of the Mini to maybe make that the new standard.

I dont think the homologated cages are for weight as much as they are for more safety. Doesnt the FIA set the standard for minimum safety? meaning you cant do less but if you prove its safer go ahead and do more?

The homologated---just French for STANDARDIZED----is so people can make KITS and sell them and the customer KNOWS WITH CERTAINTY at Log Book issuing time and a scrutineering that the officials will glance at the sticker and say "OK, good to go" at events where ever they are...

Its about standardization across National borders.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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DaveK
BMW compact FIA kit is ~$1600, probably $1800 once its shipped here (Evo IX is ~$200 more for reference). Existing shops in this area are $3500-4000 for a cage depending on complexity. If steel is currently running ~$700 for a cage, that leaves ~$1100 to cover all the labor for measuring, bending, cutting, & profiling. If you assumed a shop rate of just $50, that's only 22 hours to get all that done...seems really quick for doing a one-off.

Dave

You've lost me there.
You don't have the cost of labor for installation of the cage kit.
Let's go with your price references. $3500-4000 for a cage built from DOM.
Cage kit: $1600. How much is the same shop going to charge for installation?

A local racing guy I was talking to was talking about installing his cage. He said it took him 40 hours in a garage at his house. Look at how quick Carlos got that cage put together in that STI. It really wasn't that many days.
We're tracking how many hours on Tyler's car, though it's fairly difficult as there has been alot of wasted time getting tools set up and mounted and I'm measuring everything multiple times and checking multiple dimensions before bending anything. I honestly think 2000-2500 is a more realistic cost for a cage. The thing is as I see it, most rally shops eventually become car or race shops where the log hours are sufficient so cages have to pay really well to make it worthwhile to do. If you make $2500 on the cage but could have made $4000 doing your regular mechanic work why do cages? Then again, it takes those guys a week whereas we'll be lucky to finish Tyler's by the end of the month.

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NoCoast

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DaveK
BMW compact FIA kit is ~$1600, probably $1800 once its shipped here (Evo IX is ~$200 more for reference). Existing shops in this area are $3500-4000 for a cage depending on complexity. If steel is currently running ~$700 for a cage, that leaves ~$1100 to cover all the labor for measuring, bending, cutting, & profiling. If you assumed a shop rate of just $50, that's only 22 hours to get all that done...seems really quick for doing a one-off.

You've lost me there.
You don't have the cost of labor for installation of the cage kit.
Let's go with your price references. $3500-4000 for a cage built from DOM.
Cage kit: $1600. How much is the same shop going to charge for installation?

My example was meant to try and bring the prices to a point where a comparison could be made. I was assuming that both the DOM cage and the T45 cages are going to get mig'd and that either material takes the same amount of time to weld (IDK if that's true.). So, to get there, all we need to consider is how many hours it takes to actually bend and profile the one-off cage. For mass production runs, this cost will come down quite a bit, and I know that's what you're planning on.

Custom Cage - $1800 + zero hours for measuring, bending, profiling, etc.
One off Cage - $700 + how many hours measuring, bending, profiling, etc.

I can't imagine that measuring, bending, profiling could be done on a one-off cage in less than 20 hours, so my general point is that Custom Cages cages don't really cost that much more if you're paying someone to do the work.

OK, just dug back into my records, and don't have an itemized bill on the work, but for "roll cage, full chassis stripping, full chassis seam welding, roof removal, & cage installation" I paid ~$5900. I dropped the car off as a rolling shell but hadn't done any work on removing the undercoating tar or any of the sound deadening sheets from the underside. So, assuming $2200 for the roll cage (CC messed up the order and I got hit with an additional $200 shipping charge when the missing parts were sent), which means I paid $3700 for all that other work.

On the BMW I dropped $700ish on a tank of liquid nitrogen* and two people took 3 hours to knock off the undercoating (6 hours). Even when that was done, I still had to spend time cleaning all the seams of paint to get them ready for welding (6 hours?). I don't remember how many hours it took you to seam weld the car Grant, but I know it took quite a bit of time (6 hours?). That totals to 18 hours, so at $50 per, plus the LN, that's $1600...so that's right around $2k for welding in the cage. Again, at $50/hour, that would give someone 40 hours to weld the cage together...for folks that do this stuff...is that a reasonable assumption?

*To be fair the Evo wasn't LN'd, but its got this oily crap that I remember Jason bitching up a storm about because it took so much longer than a car that just has the rubber shit.

Dave



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2011 07:08PM by DaveK.

lots of complexity in cage building... I'll stick to driving and swiping my CC and i'll let trusted builders (people the tech / log book folks like) do my cages.


I am glad though to see people who are making cages, put so much thought into it.

Somebody got anally raped on the Liquide Nitrogén.
175 liter Dewar here was maybe 180 bucks.

Speaking of which, generally to whoever hasn't returned it:
WHERE THE FUCK IS MY DEATH RAY-GUN

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Regarding FIA designs and failures. Currently the fIA design we use for at home builds is pretty much cast in stone. I've had guys build some stuff that just couldn't be used and it was do over time. We have a basic design that we can point to as a standard. We have to stay pretty close to that for both liability and safety. Safety is not assurance as we all know. FIA may change the design next month, if so then expect us to follow not far behind.

The whole front of a cage is really the weak part. Any severe hit on the A pillar could move stuff over as there is no real way to triangulate the windshield and dash area.

No roll cage is going to stop a 2 or 3" diameter branch from coming thru the car. Seems like one of our old guys (Jimmy Wright)took a branch thru the windshield of a real Escort years ago. I think it hit the seat under the co-drivers arm, no injury. I looked at Olson's Sube where it landed at Olympus a couple years ago. Car went off a crest/corner and thru a clear cut with stumps. Beat to crap it was. One of my customers was on his way to work a few years ago and a 2" branch broke and came down thru the windshield, dash, HVAC and nearly to the floor of a full size Ford van. Passengers side fortunately but totalled the van.

We have to go with best practices and accepted standards. Praying probably isn't a bad thing also...

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john vanlandingham
Somebody got anally raped on the Liquide Nitrogén.
175 liter Dewar here was maybe 180 bucks.

Speaking of which, generally to whoever hasn't returned it:
WHERE THE FUCK IS MY DEATH RAY-GUN

Probably! They told me costs would come down if we bought from them more often (AirGas)...but I think at first ask they wanted $1000 for it once all the rental fees were accounted for. The real shame is we didn't make efficient use of the first container, so 175L didn't even finish one car.

I'm pretty sure I saw it down at Grant's shop a while back. Rumor was/is that he's going to work on his car sometime soon.

Dave

Gene,

One of theses days, right after I fix my transmission, I need to pay you a visit for a log book on my car.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

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DaveK

I'm pretty sure I saw it down at Grant's shop a while back. Rumor was/is that he's going to work on his car sometime soon.

Dave

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.