What kind of cars

I see these cars as having a lot of potential for MaxAttack!

Honda Civic
Golves
XR
2nd Gen RX7
SRT4
Mazda 3
Sentra SER "classic" style
Toyota Starlet
Volvo 240
Pontiac LeMans

I just picked an RX7 because I knew the most about it.

These other vehicles all have something to offer and have proven to have some strong points. I'm only going with cars that I've seen do well in rallies repeatedly or that I know a something about. Obviously there are others.

Also consider newer cars that could be swung for a body in white sponsorship deal.

So pick a car and discuss it according to the following categories

Shell
tires
suspension-brakes-steering
diff
drivetrain
engine

Think about costs, try and use real numbers. Think about what it would take to build a contender. It's important that it's done in an analyitical way. Look at what has been done before. Don't wish. Don't let your love for a certain car sway you. In order to build a fast car as efficient as possible without lots of OPM you should take about 15% of you own experience and 85% of the experience of people who build cars, have seen a lot of racing, or can source the right parts for cheap.

So let's bench build again. Pick a chassis, it doesn't need to come from up above but make sure that when you are going category by category that you use the best info you have and try to be realistic about prices. It's a garbage in garbage out situation.

Realistically Jake, I think it's going to to be Mk II golfs for a few years -- there are a bunch of well prepped cars already running with talented driver/co-driver teams and I don't see how an inexperienced driver in a fancy-pants new car has much of a shot at any sort of "championship" series.

To cover the spread I'll throw out a couple of side bets:

1) The factory SRT4 gang, though their status is up in the air since the neon has morphed into the junior minivan.

2) Frank and Dan in a shagged out Yugo, Herbie the Lovebug, a Trabant, a Mercedes 600 limo, or just about anything else two wheel drive on the face of the planet...

Cheers, Ted

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Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

Ok. I know JVL and others have covered alot of this in many different posts. I'm a new xratty owner...know very little about the car, and have no real 'love of the brand' or whatever. Obviously I hope it can be a great candidate, and from it's successful history as a Sierra there is reason to believe that.

Here's my estimated budget...sure things can be done for less. That's where I hope more experienced people will chime in. In other cases I'm just inflating costs a bit to account for the incidentals.

Shell: $1000-2000 (tow gas is significant)
Cage: $1000-3000 for a great cage (depending on owners ability to fab)
Underbody protection and seam welds: $1000
Interior safety items: $1000-3000 (seat costs vary, on board fire system or not)
Wheels/Tires: $1000-3000 (can use stock wheels...up to 8 rally wheels and tires)

That pretty much takes care of items that need to go into any new build...now the xratty specific stuff:

Brakes: They're sketchy stockers at best. Drums in the rear need to be changed out to disks. Can use T-bird rear disks for the cost of junk yard parts and incidentals...say $200. Is this good enough? BAT sells a big brake setup for the front and rear. I think it's a Willwood set with Cossie rotors. The whole thing (front and rear) is $1400. What's the best way to go without in house ability to fab? ...this is key...I'm a good mechanic, but don't own a welder, and don't have fabrication experience

Differential: Stock is an open. No good way to get a clutch diff in the stock rear end. I think Quaiffe makes a diff....no good for rally. Welding the stocker is an option, but that's not an elegant solution, won't cut the deal for Max Attack, and even worse for tarmac rallies. I've heard stuff about the Toyota Supra (MA70 I think) diff from the late 80's. No idea where to get the stuff to mount that, not sure about axle adapters (I heard JVL used to make something like that, but it's alot of lathe work). Again...I don't have the ability to fab stuff...so I'm looking for a proven solution. I'm guessing said and done the rear end will be about $1000. Still way cheaper than a single Kaaz unit in a FWD car.

Tranny. Stock T9 in my car is newly rebuilt and should work for a few rallies. Lots a people go with the T-5. Need a T-bird bell housing and I think a tranny mount. Does anyone supply that mount? Unsure about the drive shaft for that. Could have a custom shaft made? We'll say $1000.

Motor. Stock 175hp. Big exhaust, cossie housing supplied by JVL, intercooler, boost control, K&N with heat shielding seems reasonable to get 250hp. What am I missing? We'll say $1000, but it might be a bit more if there's other stuff that needs to be done. 300hp would be nice, esp if the 2wd field gets thicker.

Suspension. JVL bits. $2000

What else needs to be done to get a contender worthy xratty on stage??

frumby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Brakes: They're sketchy stockers at best. Drums
> in the rear need to be changed out to disks. Can
> use T-bird rear disks for the cost of junk yard
> parts and incidentals...say $200. Is this good
> enough? BAT sells a big brake setup for the front
> and rear. I think it's a Willwood set with Cossie
> rotors. The whole thing (front and rear) is
> $1400. What's the best way to go without in house
> ability to fab? ...this is key...I'm a good
> mechanic, but don't own a welder, and don't have
> fabrication experience
>
don't sweat the XR stock brakes they are not as bad as people say. The rear drums are big drums. Make sure they are in good working condition and drive the car until you come to the end of stage and say "I wish I had more brakes on that stage" The JVAB setup is sweet but there are several budget options. Check out www.merkursport.com
and search for "brake adaptors"

---

Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

You can go budget or crazy. I'm going crazy.
Brakes, either stick with the stock, or do it right and go my setup, which is adjustable dual masters, JVAB front, and my custom rear. Expect $2500-3000 total cost. Otherwise, just get good pads for stock and don't worry about it.

Suspension. JVAB. But we still don't have a solution to correct camber, castor, or rear toe. Front stuff is available but eliminates the front anti-roll bar. Rear options are more limited. Best is to just disregard it until either myself or John come up with a good, cost effective solution. The fronts will be easiest and cheapest likely.

Diff. Gripper makes a clutch type for 750 quid plus shipping from overseas. Still no acceptable final drives though. Either wait for the JVAB square rear beam which corrects that problem and the weakness of the rear beam and will allow use of the uber-bitchin and inexpensive Supra clutch type diff with lots of ratio options.

Engine. 3" exhaust and focus on getting everything else good. Then look at Cossie intercoolers, built blocks, ported heads/intakes, etc.

Tranny. Camaro T5 with a SVO bellhousing and parts. Well documented. Dog box available with bitching gear ratios for $2500. Straight cut synchro with sweet ratios for $2000. That's with the case. Just the gears are cheaper but need installed. The regular T5 non-upgraded is good enough likely.

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Grant Hughes

Interesting. It really is the diff that is a big stumbling block. I'd rather weld the thing than pay $1500 on something that keeps the stock final drive etc.

People talk about shimming the suspension to try to get close to a good alignment...get's you part way there I guess?

Brakes...your setup sounds great. That's alot of dinero though. I guess build something that works and upgrade as you go along.

I'll probably shim mine initially. I posted a thought topic in Construction. Getting ready to go strip a parts car of a complete rear end and front hubs from the junkyard hopefully tomorrow to start trying some of this.

I've welded my diff until the JVAB rear beam stuff is done.

But, if your going to spend time and money, why not do a real improvement. I just don't see the turbocoupe junk as good. 80's drums for 80's non-vented single piston, tiny diameter rears that may not work with coilovers. And may give unknown bias.

You want real numbers, I'll give them to you for Merkur. To build a winning Max Attack car from an XR, assuming large fields with someone like Derek Bottles in his old Golf, John Nicols in his Golf, Burmeister in his Mazda, Jardevall in his Volvo, Shepard in his SRT4 or Fuller in his old Golf. To compete against and be able to beat these guys and win overall Max Attack. And I'm going to be conservative, but plan to budget approximately...
$3000 - brakes. $2000 - Suspension. $3500 - gearbox/drivetrain. $1500 - correct suspension geometry. $1000 - engine. $700 - management. $600 - cooling. $1200 fuel.
Add in the fixed costs that are the same regardless of car and you have a cost.
$3000 cage, $2000 seats/harness, $1500 wheels.
So we have $20,000 right there. Plus the cost of the car, but that should be able to beat anything else WITH a fully capable driver on most events in favorable conditions. Plan to spend $2000+ on tires per event to do so.

If you think that is expensive, think of what it takes to win AWD and you'll see it's not that much. And I think if you spend $20,000 on just about any car, you could make it to the same level of competition in 2WD. The difference is, compare the cost to do the same in a Subaru. A Subaru capable of doing the same thing takes a minimum of $25,000 for regional level, home built, by my last calculations. Todd Moberly won Laughlin in a nearly entirely homebuilt STI on a low budget of around $40,000 without the $2500 DCCD controller that he's currently contemplating. I don't think that would cut it at Oregon's National entry list.

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Grant Hughes

Any thoughts on the BAT kit? It's a set of 283mm vented rotors and I think Wilwood calipers. Around 750, so 1500 to put 283mm rotors and wilwood calipers all around. You mentioned trouble fitting coilovers...not sure what the interference is there.

Nice price breakout. That's just about what I was figuring. Get on stage with a good car for less, but that's about what it'll cost to get to the top of 2wd at a national (plus a good driver!). That's the good thing about these cars. I can put a T5 in there and be ahead of most stock FWD boxes...later drop the coin for a straight cut gearset etc. I figure I'll get on stage for about 12-15, and then upgrade from there.

Good to hear I'm not the only one contemplating the welded diff. I'll probably do that and have an MA70 waiting in the garage for the JVL stuff to mount it.

Very busy with Building Inspectors, machining broze bushings for the latest run of 40mm units and the new 50mm units and getting ready for new baby Ninochka NEXT WEEK!

The Tbird shit is an inch smaller diameter that sierra stuff and the caliper is a gross fat POS thing.

I'd give you some of that shit but then you'd hate me.

You don't want the Bat kit, they supply big 4 x 1.75 pistons, and for what they want for a Sierra rotor~~~$155 you can get my alloy hats and bigger 1 1/4 thick rotors.

Which seems like the only thing which will give us the ID we need to have full pad contact will end up costing 15 or so bucks more than the originally anticipated $55.

Grrrrrrrr.

A visit last week with the Fab man yielded a promise we'd get going real quick.
I asked how it is when I have 550 bucks in material and hours of set up time that other projects are "hot", and my project is not?
I pointed out delays for some guy's fucking British POS Sprite plaything is one thing, delaying for 8 fuckin months my beam projects has delayed ME MAKING A CENT OFF THE MATERIALS< the TIME, the DIFFS I have bought etc, in short my fawkin mortgage.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

And I said I want to do 10, not 5.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I know how hard it is to get stuff done...my Mishelle is out to there with our first (due in 6 weeks), back from the desert and my fleet of 3 bikes and 4 cars (including DSM rally car and new xratty) all needs work (batteries, tires, brakes...you name it!)...the squadron has me back in the cockpit like real quick, so I'm flying all the time also!

I'll be chipping away at this thing...listening to all the advice etc. Good info...it would suck to throw a bunch of $$ down the drain on BAT stuff (and other solutions) when there's better stuff out there.

Right now, just about any low to moderate spec car, when well driven, can win 2wd at most events. Sure, there are some fast events where you need 200+hp to be competitive but I think most events could be won in my golf...and its not very trick at all.


If someone offered me $25,000 to build a new car or $10,000 to make improvements to my golf, I would keep the golf almost as is, add a carbon hood and hatch, install Autronic injection, bump the compression up to 12:1 (aim for ~160whp) and pocket the change for driving school and entering more events....

Now, if someone offered $100,000+, that is a different story, I would purchase a used low-spec super1600 car (VW Polo???) and have it shipped over here.

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____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2007 10:12AM by Josh Wimpey.

What kind of weight are you shooting for with this Golf chock full o' carbon?

IE what is a good weight to have a 160 hp 2wd vehicle at?

---

"Time to unpimp ze auuto."





sleightc (A.T.) Yahoo {DOT} com

Phlyan Pan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What kind of weight are you shooting for with this
> Golf chock full o' carbon?
>
> IE what is a good weight to have a 160 hp 2wd
> vehicle at?

I dunno what a good weight is but I would think it is as low as allowable...

We have weighed the car a couple of times.

When we weighed it at Cherokee Trails 2005 with only a couple gallons of fuel, no lights, no tools, it was ~2270lbs.

Full of rally gear, tools, spare tire and 12 gallons of fuel, and 35lbs of lights/lightbar, it weighed ~2450lbs at Rally TN 2006. (Note: we added about 10ft of tubing to the cage plus some gussetts since CT 05)

Since then, we removed about 1.5lbs by removing the rear wiper and added some weight by putting a "Big" front bumper on, and lost probably 10lbs off the lights by going to a fiberglass pod.


The RA rules show min weight of 2205lbs for a 2.0l 16v motor. And, we are probably within about 90lbs when out of gas. Carbon hood and hatch should get us within 50lbs of min weight when out of gas without lights on the car. I want to keep glass windows as much as possible---I hate plastic.

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2007 10:59AM by Josh Wimpey.

My golf had 152 WHP last time it was dyno'ed I often was more than a min faster then the next fastest 2wd car up here in the NW even when they had a lot more HP then me for example 300 HP Turbo Rx7. OK once we had a stage around a race trak and he kicked my ass back to the stone age but in the woods, no problem.

I never spent more than $1300 for tires for one event.

My final cost was more like $18k because I found some good deals on the motor and the gear box - if you did not find these deals it would have been about $25,000 for the golf.

I spent a lot more than $1500 on wheels. If you can change tires at an event not so bad the crew can mount new rubber between service, otherwise you need lots of rims, big piles of them like 3 sets for 2wd car on a hot dry day. Also good rims = happy driver. I broke the stock rims so fast you could not belive it.

Older cars need more work on brakes newcars are getting better stuff, really new stuff need more work as they will not fit under 15" rally tires!

---

In the long run reality always wins.

Hmmm why do you hate plastic? Said the guy who was thinking about replacing the rear side windows with lexan

---

Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...