U.S rally: How's it going guys?

Wow, that puts things in perspective.

Quote
derek
Put another way if growth was equal between the two and the rallys were the same that 1988 $250 entry should be $536 today.

intersting, after the subaru rebate was taken off, we paid $450 for the OTR regional entry. I know you can't really use that number since it isn't the standard fee, but interesting none-the-less.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2013 09:07PM by Morison.

Sheeit. I'm making $4 LESS an hour now than when I bailed on my last shitty job six years ago to take care of my son(s).

Get real job skills people, don't pay $100k for a meaningless piece of paper!

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Quote
derek
Seattle Median Household income grew from 41,500 in 1990 to 91,000 in 2010 or

$41,500(X^20) = $91,000 IE wages grew at 3.1%/year over that time

The entry fee for 1988 Doo Wops was $250. Entry Fee for Oregon Trail Regional was $773 in 2013 the math works out to 4.6% annual growth over the 25 years but Doo Wops was always a lower cost rally than Doo Wops so 4.6% is likely overstated.

Put another way if growth was equal between the two and the rallys were the same that 1988 $250 entry should be $536 today.

My personal wages grew by infinity between 1989 and today as I was a college student back when I did my first rally working very part time.

If someone has entry fee data I can work out growth rates for them...

National Pacific Forest whatever the fuck it was in 1988 was $400 for the "Pro" --although I entered the 2 club events. Total: $200.
I remember because Greg Lund, ever pleasant fellow was moaning and with a snear better than Geoge Dubya's said to a gang of 13-14 of us club cars--so a big crew "Why do these guys get top go the WHOLE DISTANCE for $200 when I had to pay $400 for the National!! (Sniffle sniffle wha wha whaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!)

I also paid $400 in 1995 for Maine Summer National "Pro" rally and again in 1996 I believe.

So not 100% certain about 1996 so stick with 1995 for baseline $400 rate for a "National"

Charts are nice:


I like charts.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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Quote
Slowwpoke
Wow, that puts things in perspective.

Look at "the Milage chart" just above..

Find 1984....Wild West Divisional...$55 for 110 SS miles--350 total
$100/day by 1988/89 but steady into 1992-93

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I still don't see the 800% you were talking about.
Working on the $400 in '95 number then you're suggesting national entries at $3200, regional entries at $1600, which just ain't happening in North America.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

$100 to $800

Fuck the fucking "National" or the stupid pretentious "Pro-Rally"
Club/Divisional/regional is the only thing that makes any sense so fuck the pretense.
$100 typical to $800

Chart was somewhere yesterday or today, who knows. Fuck it.
Average Wawway Amerwica around $800.

People that want to throw away more top get ignored, that's their probleb..

Main point is the whole system collapses if people decide they can't do the club/divisional/regional events..for $800 to piddle around in the wood for an hour and a half.
Then where will the rich guys and their suck-buddies be?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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Remember! Pacific Standard Time
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Quote
john vanlandingham
$100 to $800

But $100 in 1980 is the same as $285 today, and looking at it any differently would be pretty dishonest.
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
So 280% increase and a change in the costs of doing business. (According to Gene, adding road use fees, which is significant)

Quote
john vanlandingham
Main point is the whole system collapses if people decide they can't do the club/divisional/regional events..for $800 to piddle around in the wood for an hour and a half.
Then where will the rich guys and their suck-buddies be?

I'm guessing a bit here, but if you looked at the actual business model behind RA National events right now you'd find the National entries are actually subsidizing the regional entries... slightly. Gene? You're probably the best person to comment on this here.

At the end of the day, a couple of hundred dollars is a fraction of a weekend budget for most rally teams but is 'make or break' for event organizers. (None of whom bump entry fees on a whim, it's always painful to move fees even $25)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
$100 to $800

But $100 in 1980 is the same as $285 today, and looking at it any differently would be pretty dishonest.
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
So 280% increase and a change in the costs of doing business. (According to Gene, adding road use fees, which is significant)

Quote
john vanlandingham
Main point is the whole system collapses if people decide they can't do the club/divisional/regional events..for $800 to piddle around in the wood for an hour and a half.
Then where will the rich guys and their suck-buddies be?

I'm guessing a bit here, but if you looked at the actual business model behind RA National events right now you'd find the National entries are actually subsidizing the regional entries... slightly. Gene? You're probably the best person to comment on this here.

At the end of the day, a couple of hundred dollars is a fraction of a weekend budget for most rally teams but is 'make or break' for event organizers. (None of whom bump entry fees on a whim, it's always painful to move fees even $25)

Golly, what insight, What brilliance. You're right. As always.You're not just a photographer and an ex car salesman you're an economist too. What a veritable polymath. Your talent are wasted.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
... blah blah blah

Out comes the snippy language, you must feel backed into a corner again Johnny.

I was just trying to continue the dialogue about where prices are at and helping people understand if they are reasonable or not. You, on the other hand, throw out a generally meaningless, inflammatory, and ultimately indefensible "800% increase" number in some tone of outrage. You purposely left the door wide open by attributing the increase to 'this century' and have yet to clarify what you meant. Since we're starting to look at starting point comparisons in 1980, then clearly you mean the last 100 years, so why not reach for a much MUCH higher rate of increase? Wouldn't 'over a thousand percent' have sounded so much more dramatic? (and that's all you were really looking for anyway wasn't it... drama)

You point, whilst insulting them, at the National entries and the reality that they 'need' the regional entries to keep the events afloat, but when the idea that they are already subsidizing the regional entries is floated, you curl up and revert to hurling sarcastic jabs.

I think one of the reasons people think entry fees are too high is people keep telling them they are. As someone who's organized many events, both regional and national, and who has been able to ride the fine line of not loosing money and not making too much money, I can tell you that event entry fees are pretty much where the organizers need them to be and not a penny higher.

What I don't understand is why you didn't grab what was left for you. Yes, even counting inflation, regional event entry fees are still 3x what they were in 1980... Triple in overall cost and, likely - others would know better than I would - significantly less mileage... If you're sure entry fees are too high, that's the framework to start asking questions in.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Road fees have risen dramatically. Back in the day we raced for free mostly. Maybe brought a grader in once in a while to smooth a section. Now fees run into the tens of thousands in some instances. That is not the fault of NRS or RA. Those fees have driven event costs at a higher rate than sanctioning fees. jamming RA or NRS over the final costs is bullshit. There are sanctioning costs but they are only a part of an events actual costs. When you play in someone elses backyard this happens.

RA does subsidize the costs of regional events and probably at the expense of nationals. Especially some of the really undersubscribed events such as Duhnees' . Its a BS deal at best.

In all fairness to RA they have reduced their overhead costs significantly and the actual fees seen this year are less than their initial proposal (which was quite staggering). Fogg still has an uphill battle with costs and ruffled feathers.

With the re-introduction of Spitzner and SCCA into the sport things may be foggy for Fogg. Rumor has it that SCCA is snooping about the rally world beyond RallyX. USAC has proven to be somewhat less than stellar to deal with and maybe were a bit over zealous in the beginning. RA on shakey ground and NRS has some percieved internal issues.

Nameless/Olympus, Idaho and Mt.Hood have all survived with regional status. Hard work of the organizers and supportive competitors can make it work. Nameless was fun this year, even with a couple duufups. No national RA stress. The regional competitors were the center of attention and it worked very well.

Quote
heymagic
.......

With the re-introduction of Spitzner and SCCA into the sport things may be foggy for Fogg. Rumor has it that SCCA is snooping about the rally world beyond RallyX.....

The sticker Nazi is back? Ooooh... this ought to be fun to watch. Was the 1998 Spitzner Proposal mandating pretty painted trailers not enough?

Maybe y'all will have to have freshly polished driving shoes.

Maybe he saw the errors of his ways and will undo his "PRO RALLY" to "ProRally" bullshit.

Com'on Kurt show us what you're gonna do this time. Spitzner Proposal 2013 coming soon?

Quote
Morison
intersting, after the subaru rebate was taken off, we paid $450 for the OTR regional entry. I know you can't really use that number since it isn't the standard fee, but interesting none-the-less.

And, that Subaru rebate helps me exactly how, if I'm running NASA events? Another bitch of mine related to the 2 separate organizations.

---

Don Kennedy

Quote
Morison
blah BLAH bla BLAH BLAH.

No Einstein I just get sick of you needng to explain the fucking obvious in such boring and plodding and so often agonizingly dull ways..
What wit, what insight, laser like illumination
BUT
Some genius many times smarter than even your celestial height of erudition wrote on some other forum this:

Quote

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Morison
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Quote Originally Posted by Don Kennedy View Post
That used to be the case. But I don't think so anymore. Prove me wrong. (maybe I'm just looking at regional?).
For the national Championship here's the data. I couldn't find information on LSPR ,and used last years entry fees for Rocky and Tall Pines in Canada, but there have been no significant changes in Canada to cause those events to skyrocket in price. That gives six events in both countries as data.

RA:
Average National entry fee: $1775
Min: $1500 (NEFR)
Max $1950 (OTR)
total of known six out of seven: $10,650
Projected of all seven: $12,425

CRC:
Average National entry fee: $905
Min: $850 (RMR/PFR)
Max $1000 (Pines)
total of all six: $5,425

For the Regionals associated with the National events:
(In this case the regional option that gave the most mileage was chosen.)

RA Regional Entries:
Average Regional entry fee: $846<-----------------------------
Min: $750 (OTR)
Max $930 (STPR)

CRC:
Average Regional entry fee: $680<----------------------------
Min: $535 (PN)
Max $900 (Baie)

So, still lower - just not near as much.

Last edited by Morison; 08-12-2013 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Did some more research...

Late 1980s/early 90s...$100 /day
The data above show now average $846/day
100 vs 846
8.46 times
Wages have not gone up since early 90s by 8.46 times...

Now, why don't you bless somebody else with your brilliance and steel trap like intellect, explain how all the people that say the high cost of entry to their SS1 is trivial and their concerns should be dismissed as you are doing.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Jens

Quote
heymagic
.......

With the re-introduction of Spitzner and SCCA into the sport things may be foggy for Fogg. Rumor has it that SCCA is snooping about the rally world beyond RallyX.....

The sticker Nazi is back? Ooooh... this ought to be fun to watch. Was the 1998 Spitzner Proposal mandating pretty painted trailers not enough?

Maybe y'all will have to have freshly polished driving shoes.

Maybe he saw the errors of his ways and will undo his "PRO RALLY" to "ProRally" bullshit.

Com'on Kurt show us what you're gonna do this time. Spitzner Proposal 2013 coming soon?

Nascar has control templates the car body must conform to...
If Spitzner gets in to some position of power maybe he'll invent some template the brim of the requiired baseball hats have to conform to...

"..................FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE!!!!!.....................................
SCCA Announces new rule for Official Approved Professional Flat Brim Hatâ„¢


All crews must wear the Official Approved Professional Flat Brim Hatâ„¢. All
Official Approved Professional Flat Brim Hatsâ„¢ will be checked at Scutineering and at random points in the event against the Official Approved Professional Flat Brim Hatâ„¢ gauge... If Official Approved Professional Flat Brim Hatâ„¢ is found not to be in compliance penalties with be assed, check payable to Kurt Spitzner....As with previous established practice all rules mean whatever Series Schmuck says they mean at that moment regardless of printed rules or previous decisions..
The use of Official Approved Professional Flat Brim Hatâ„¢ will leverage marketing symbioses of vast scales and we all are going to be fabulously wealthy excpt from crews not wearing Official Approved Professional Flat Brim Hatâ„¢"

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.