Autocrossing a Rally Car

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12xalt
autocross is painfully boring to watch

which is why when I go to one, I'm in the car, only way to have fun

I have recommended to every newb that they should find some shit tires and get at least one ally, one rally friend and go do a few cone squish fests... Most people are very sloppy at slow speeds, and tend to try way too hard--I know i do--- so some practice where the course is clear, there's ZERO danger _{to any sane person}, and if you have company so you don't go suicidal from listening to the tales of endurance, the brilliant tactics, the don't- blink- for- the- entire -run level of of mind bending concentration, the inhuman G forces that only the fittest athletes could bear.....

And for cheap, it's maybe worth doing..

Same as a grass-o-cross, or an amateur driftie day or an Alfa Club track day...
But those things as a regular investment of one of the few remaining days I have alive for a few minutes,,,no, no thank you.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2013 09:53AM by john vanlandingham.

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si
Don't know too much about the Hotbits, I would say set them however you would drive it on the street normally. It's awfully surface dependent, and the surfaces I've run in are far less than perfect. There's usually a few severe bumps/cracks, and a suspension should do what a suspension should do. I've never known adjustables to behave well at the extreme settings, but that just may be my experience with 'cheaper' adjustables.

On hot asphalt, I have to imagine your tires are going to be limiting enough that most everything else but the driver is going to be rather inconsequential.

I don't really have a street setting since the only street driving in the car has been transits where I'm not really testing any sort of limits. The surface is nice new pavement and they're calling for rain, so things are going to be a gong show all around on crappy half worn all seasons. I'll probably just run my rally settings and maybe try firming up the fronts as the day goes in to see if it does anything to steering response. At the end of the day the car is there as a billboard for the rally series, not serious competition, so none of it really matters anyway. Thanks!

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Atlantic Canadian Region Rallysport: http://www.rallyeast.ca - Ledwidge Lookoff Rally http://www.lookoffrally.com
2000 Impreza 2.5RS CARS P4WD (Sponsored by Rally-Tech, Great North Performance)

If rebound is adjustable separately from compression, crank it up (unless it's pouring). This is the trick most people associate with Mark Daddio. You get the shocks to pack down, dropping the car and (effectively) raising the spring rates.

There's also the Chapman quote about even the worst suspension design can be made to work if you don't let it move. That's in here somewhere, too.

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Iowa999
There's also the Chapman quote about even the worst suspension design can be made to work if you don't let it move. That's in here somewhere, too.

I saw that in a Herb Adams book. I disagree with a lot of what he said, but one thing he did point out was that suspension geometry is meaningless if the suspension doesn't move to start with.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

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Pete

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Iowa999
There's also the Chapman quote about even the worst suspension design can be made to work if you don't let it move. That's in here somewhere, too.

I saw that in a Herb Adams book. I disagree with a lot of what he said, but one thing he did point out was that suspension geometry is meaningless if the suspension doesn't move to start with.

Which as we have all seen over the years the typical "informed" auto-x perv uses springs 100-200% stiffer than the same cars used in roadracing or tarmac rally.. Some of us understand the the v in the forumlas , v for velocity, is a kinda cubed factor, which means you'rd think those BMWs and Sierras going 160mph would maybe need a bit stiffer springs and dampers than some fat grey hair putz autocrosser who may momentarily touch 45 or 55mph,
but NOOOOOooooooooooooOOOOOOO...and they will argue until the cows come home why they "need" 600lb fronts and 1200lbs rear* to drive 30 mph in a fucking parking lot.


* in a car originally sprung with 97 lb/in front and around 260 spring rate rear, in an unstrengthened, unstitch-welded car with maybe a "roll bar"
That is far beyond ordinary stupidity, it is only the result of "reasoning" because "suspension is easy"

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham

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Pete

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Iowa999
There's also the Chapman quote about even the worst suspension design can be made to work if you don't let it move. That's in here somewhere, too.

I saw that in a Herb Adams book. I disagree with a lot of what he said, but one thing he did point out was that suspension geometry is meaningless if the suspension doesn't move to start with.

Which as we have all seen over the years the typical "informed" auto-x perv uses springs 100-200% stiffer than the same cars used in roadracing or tarmac rally.. Some of us understand the the v in the forumlas , v for velocity, is a kinda cubed factor, which means you'rd think those BMWs and Sierras going 160mph would maybe need a bit stiffer springs and dampers than some fat grey hair putz autocrosser who may momentarily touch 45 or 55mph,
but NOOOOOooooooooooooOOOOOOO...and they will argue until the cows come home why they "need" 600lb fronts and 1200lbs rear* to drive 30 mph in a fucking parking lot.


* in a car originally sprung with 97 lb/in front and around 260 spring rate rear, in an unstrengthened, unstitch-welded car with maybe a "roll bar"
That is far beyond ordinary stupidity, it is only the result of "reasoning" because "suspension is easy"

All they're doing is taking mechanical grip away, and since 45-55mph doesn't give you any downfarce all you have IS mechanical grip. The only reason I can think of for them to add stiffness like that, is in the hopes of getting better turn in and decrease tub motion in order to keep stability in the back to back slalom turns. All of this at the cost of decreasing ultimate tyre adhesion. Hence why you sometime see Miatas and Civics running 275-315 tyres in autocross, when for eg a 195-50-15 is the common for a tarmac Civic.

You guys who think that you know better than the people who have dedicated inordinate hours to the question - both in terms of the math and in terms of back-to-back testing - are free to take a softly-sprung car to any Divisional-level or higher event to prove your point.

Furthermore, to the extent that the advice that I've seen here is to ask the fastest folks what they have done and start by copying them, I would ask that people try to be vaguely consistent.

There is only one national driver who is on your side (Sam Strano), preferring softly-sprung cars that he can toss around. Funny thing is, when he runs in classes that allow you to upgrade your springs, he doesn't do as well. In fact, he was once beaten at a local event by some complete duffer in a 2G DSM. But I'm sure that the DSM's 900/550 springs had nothing to do with it.

You know John, I got into rally because of cone-o-cross like a lot of other folks here. I started competing, chaired the auto-x program in Memphis for 2 years, was a solo safety steward, moved to Chattanooga/started rallying in '01, chaired the Chattanooga Rally-X program while also competing in stage rally, was involved in putting on rally events, helped start up NRS, etc.

The last Rally Tennessee was the first automotive event since 1997 of any kind that I have attended that I was not either competing in or volunteering for. And I was acting as crew, and ended up competing because the co-driver's back went south.

Giving back is a Good Thing, and even if you have to deal with geeky folks (and God knows, rally may have a lock on that one) who maybe get a little too excited and into "their sport" you have to give them props that they are out there actually doing something, especially if they are volunteering their time/energy/vacation, etc.

Rally, just like any motorsport, can suffer from too many classes/tow championship/other ills. I have seen extremely slow production class drivers win their class because of lack of competition. I have also seen extremely fast production class drivers win their class, and finish high overall in an event. You can call bullshit on anybody's bragging, and you don't have to listen to assholes (try a Porsche Club event). But don't paint with such a broad brush, and appreciate what some of these guys do in giving back.

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2013 02:12PM by wvonkessler.

I was just about to point out the irony of asking JVL not to paint with broad brushes followed by the slam against Porsche Club folks when, on reflection, it hit me: he's right; almost everyone I've ever met at a Porsche Club event was an asshole.

I loved auto-crossing my rally cars

some times I would auto-x on a set of gravel tires, a bit grease but good fun

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

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tdrrally
I loved auto-crossing my rally cars

some times I would auto-x on a set of gravel tires, a bit grease but good fun

An' FUN is what it's all about, Yes?

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Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.

it helps after spending all day chasing cones

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

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Iowa999
You guys who think that you know better than the people who have dedicated inordinate hours to the question - both in terms of the math and in terms of back-to-back testing -

We think we know better because we are now or have been paid full time motorsports people who have spent 10s of thousands of hours working on this very subject.....much like we presume you spent 10s of thousands of hours getting your doctorate and subsequently teaching.
That is your profession and what you can speak with presumable authority.
THIS is our profession and we can speak with presumable authority and then suggest reference to published data at the highest levels--ie World rally championship or National Championship in countries with serious level rallying much as we would guess that you would refer people to published studies if the subject was say abnormal or adolescent psychology. (which may be redundant)

The difference is that many highly specialised people in some areas, especially high status fields, somehow make the error of thinking that because they are highly--or even competently skilled in their trade/profession/career that they are also therefore experts in very specific other areas.
Or they believe me when I wave an issue of Scientific American with yet another cover story about genetic research and say "Look at this! They have discover where on the helix where males have a chromosome that gives them car knowledge!" I did this and the 2 fools pontificating on whatever bullshit they were pontification on BOTH said "Oh really? That's very interesting...I always thought there was some basis (crash! as I hit the fucker over the head with the notorious Jamie bat).

One of the bigger obnoxious asshole auto-crossers I have had the displeasure to be subjected to his years of blather believes the entire world needs a detailed turn by turn accounting of all the epic battles and glorious victories in his "career"...
I did a quick, but not toooo sloppy (in rounding up) the total time "racing" that this hero had on his blog..

His "inordinate' hours amounted to a then a stupendous awe inspiring 3.5 hours total.

His "race" car was a slightly modded car, aside from the idiotic springs and stupidly wide tires, little different from many daily drivers..

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are free to take a softly-sprung car to any Divisional-level or higher event to prove your point.

You didn't notice where I said all fun depends on what you are used to did you..
Seriously, regardless of your previous diatribes and rantings I speak now simply and clearly: you do understand that people's previous experiences develops opinions and ideas about what they later encounter, right? That's simple. And from that we develop what should we call it -- values---valorization?
So depending on somebody prior experiences one person may find sitting around pounding the pudding for a whole day in exchange for 3 or 4 43 second runs around a parking lot--or a grassy field---a kick ass bitchin shit ton-o-fun, the next person who may have say raced many races with 4-7 hours duration might find the 3-4 x 42 seconds a waste of time..a waste of a day---of which we all have a limited number of..

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Furthermore, to the extent that the advice that I've seen here is to ask the fastest folks what they have done and start by copying them, I would ask that people try to be vaguely consistent.

But with 30+ classes at a given cone-squish fest, who is the fastest guy?
And how do we know that he has the merest fucking clue what he is doing regarding set ups.

You know that the reference here is to study similar car with similar set ups starting from PUBLISHED DATA as a "pretty good starting point"...then adjusting slightly for the little differences in weight, length etc..
The "preety good starting point" is what Ford's Motorsport department published for 20 years....

Shirley you cannot seriously equate some goober in some parking lot in a class with 1-2 other to be an equivalent source to 'ask the fastest guys"?
That's as silly as saying ask some putz at a US rally if his suspension set up is why he won "THE BIG RACE".

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blah blah ....In fact, he was once beaten at a local event by some complete duffer in a 2G DSM. But I'm sure that the DSM's 900/550 springs had nothing to do with it.

Who knows? Who cares? One isolated 'anecdote' without or even with a bunch of other claims is meaningless...

And this very kind of "argumentation" you are doing is why, when I tell guys to go play some cone-squishing either in parking lots or in some grass field, I say "Take a friend along so you don't have to listen to a days worth of auto-crossers bullshitting..."


Back to your profession, it would be like you wanted a good conversation on some underpinning concept in your work---would you search out a bunch of full time mechanics or electrical engineers or the country sanitation dept workers?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

tl;dr

I was under the impression that auto-xers ran wide tires to compensate for the 2nd gear torque

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!