Autocrossing a Rally Car

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Iowa999
tl;dr

que?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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OjNK
So on a lark I'm taking our rally car out to an AutoSlalom next weekend. I haven't done any slaloming in ages, and then mostly in Civics and Miatas. We're pretty much just going out for shits and giggles and to spread the word/awareness of our building stage rally series, so I'm really not expecting to do much, especially since the only non-gravel tires I have are some truly awful Federal brand All Seasons that came from the dealer on my Wife's Impreza.

Anyway, its a 2000 Impreza RS Production 4WD car, so the only mods of consequence are the cage and the Hotbits DT1s. Any recommendations for settings and tire pressures for a fairly tight course? On the Civic with adjustables I'd stiffen the front full hard and the rears almost full soft. On the Miata I didn't have adjustables but I ran a big front sway and no rear sway which worked well. Adjusting the suspension, tire pressures and maybe disconnecting a bar is about as far as I'm willing to go on this little adventure.

Any suggestions? I'm expecting more hilarity than anything else.

Normally on a fwd,we would stiffen the rear more to combat understeer-It should be similar for your awd.
You want to leave to front slightly softer than rear for bite.
This applies more to springs,than shocks/struts,but does apply to damper settings as well.

Just run the damn all-seasons,stiffen up the rear a little(or maybe you won't need to)play with the tire pressures and have fun!

You probably won't be the slowest person out there...

I'm no auto-xer,and I won't make the 1.5 hour jaunt to Fontana where our actual SCCA auto-x's are held,but 1/2 hour from me is the Camarillo airport.

A couple times a year the local Corvair club ,and also the Santa Barbara Porsche club put on autocrosses on a closed runway there.

Neither of them do any classing-my shitbox 145 hp grocery getter runs against the ac cobras, the Porsche GT3,the big block camaros,the girl in rental 6 cyl mustang,miatas,ricer civic ,corvair,lotus exige,etc.

But it's cheap and they feed you lunch and I figured it still beats working.
I haven't run into any douches,but I only went twice...Once,a couple of years ago with the corvair club(only a couple Corvairs show up-it's mostly muscle cars)and This year i showed up at the porsche one.

They had to shorten the course because a stuntman course was sharing the runway at the other end that day.....course was horribly short..way too tight and narrow..and tediously slow...i'm not sure i'll be back to be honest.....

And results don't really mean anything at these-other than I guess you know the guys that came to run parade laps or need some serious instruction.

But I laughed when I saw the results.

Because I'm not very good,my slow car was on stockish svt street springs and I was on all-seasons-and my car wasn't handling too great.

But I still had quicker times than some-oh slightly more expensive machinery.

Look-My focus is faster than a Porsche GT4! thats me in 15th overall:

http://www.pcasb.org/images/20130413_Camarillo_AutoX_Results.jpg

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tdrrally
I was under the impression that auto-xers ran wide tires to compensate for the 2nd gear torque

We run wide tires for lateral grip and short tires because we still don't have enough torque, especially with the increased grip of wide tires.

For example, in Stock you must keep the stock wheel size (and can only alter offset by 5mm). People with Evo Xs often jam 265/35/18s onto the 18x8.5" wheels. These are both wider and shorter than the OE 245/40/18s. With a 5mm spacer, the inside edge just clears the front shock.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 08:25AM by Iowa999.

sounds good to me

i think auto-x is a different sport with different needs
basic car car control in a controlled environment

that is why i do it when i can

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Not only is autocrossing different from just about any other motorsport, it is also unique in not having a professional version. The semi-serious road-racer, drag-racer, rallyist, etc, can all look to the professionals (with their huge budgets and teams of experts) for ideas to copy as starting points and/or neat new parts if they can afford them. Not so with autocrossing. Yes, there are some shops that specialize in setting cars up for autocrossing, but it isn't the same. These shops have to do all of their testing and development on their own and aren't anything like Red Bull, etc.

When I redesigned the upper front A-arm for 2G DSMs, I did the modeling in - ready for it? - Turbo Pascal and then just cut, drilled, and welded the OE arms to the new dimensions. Even though my design was soon widely copied, no-one has made a jig to mass-produce them. Without there being a professional level for autocrossing, it just doesn't make sense to do that sort of thing. If what I'd made had been appropriate for road-racing, it would have been different. (In fact, the Archer Brothers had already done the equivalent for higher speeds and no tight turns.) But autocrossing is different.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Iowa999
tl;dr

que?

ToodLedoo; DoucheRanger

Duh!

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

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john vanlandingham

Quote
Iowa999
tl;dr

que?

http://tinyurl.com/nynzhx

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

So the event was yesterday and I had fun. Not something I'd make a habit of, but I could see doing it again on a spare weekend. (This particular lot is only 10 minutes from my house)

In the end I really didn't change anything from the rally setup other than tire pressures (40F/35R) and it handled better than I expected. It was a relatively open second gear course with lots of long radius turns, not the usual digging and dodging super tight stuff that would have really killed us. The tires were horrible, which I expected, made worse by the light rain for my runs which had me doing some (fun) rally style lateral slides. Didn't have a single run without cones because of it, though. My partner fared better for his heat on dry pavement (plus he's a better driver) and did pretty well overall. Of course the water pump gasket let loose later in the day and puked glycol everywhere, but I consider that worth the event entry alone since we have 6 weeks to fix it before our next rally. Water pump was on the list for after the season was over before that. Probably saved us a DNF.

I think with some actual thought to setup (better tires, better cold-bite pads, actually playing with the Hotbits adjustments) it could actually probably be a reasonably competitive mid-pack car for overall times. Class-wise of course our Production 4WD car get pumped into Prepared.. because the interior is pulled out. I love that the rules penalize us more for a missing headliner than the cage and full adjustable coilover suspension. Good thing its all in fun

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Atlantic Canadian Region Rallysport: http://www.rallyeast.ca - Ledwidge Lookoff Rally http://www.lookoffrally.com
2000 Impreza 2.5RS CARS P4WD (Sponsored by Rally-Tech, Great North Performance)

Glad you had fun. I just noticed your location; if I'd noticed before I would have suggested looking for Scott McIntire (in an SM 2G DSM), as he's a really nice guy to talk with about autocrossing an AWD. (He is one of the folks who has copied my upper front A-arms, in fact.) He's from PEI, but is addicted and will travel for even local events.

Note that if you get even a little bit hooked, in Prepared you aren't limited to DOT tires. Picking up a set of used slicks at the end of the season would make a huge difference.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2013 09:31PM by Iowa999.

Hehe, I know Scott. He showed up to the event but his Talon is perma-broke and he doesn't seem to want to run his EVOX in slalom. Says it steers like a barge. *shrug* Seemed like it would be pretty fun to me. Now my SG5 Forester XT... that I'll pass on.

I'm not new to Slalom. It was my introduction to motorsports 15 years ago and I did a bunch of full press seasons but my intereststs moved on. I don't see going back to doing it regularly any time soon but as long as the car is fun and the events are nearby I can see doing them once in a while for kicks. I still vastly prefer the dirt.

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Atlantic Canadian Region Rallysport: http://www.rallyeast.ca - Ledwidge Lookoff Rally http://www.lookoffrally.com
2000 Impreza 2.5RS CARS P4WD (Sponsored by Rally-Tech, Great North Performance)

Cool. If and when you see him again, please say that JTM-Cinder says "Hi" and that I, too, have switched to an X. Small world.

The events are as fun as you make them. The crowd around here is not as bad as a Porsche club, but they take their shit serious. They kind of reminded me of those old guys at the car paint shows that sit there all day and talk about how awesome his hot rod is.

I ran one to see how gravel tires handled on the hard surface to prepare for the Brockway gravel tire requirement. If you go out there and tear it up, somebody will say something. Like others have said, don't drift the entire course... unless it's the last run and you don't plan on coming back with that car.

Don't try to bring a Peltor BSI rated helmet to a auto x. I got to wear mine after a lot of whining, but they told me not to come back with it.

It's cheap seat time and it teaches you car control, nothing wrong with it, just make sure you bring a car to run. Don't bother going to watch one first.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2013 02:22PM by RnJ.

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RnJ
Don't try to bring a Peltor BSCI rated helmet to a auto x.

BSI stuff really freaks people out sometimes. SCCA does make a handy dandy helmet sticker flyer:

2013_Solo_helmet_cert_decals.pdf

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

Yeah, all my helmets are Snell. My wife has a Peltor bucket but there's no way my head will fit in it. Canada is also a lot more sane with BSI anyway, its allowed for our slaloms and CARS has a 10 year manufacture date expiry on them for rally.

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Atlantic Canadian Region Rallysport: http://www.rallyeast.ca - Ledwidge Lookoff Rally http://www.lookoffrally.com
2000 Impreza 2.5RS CARS P4WD (Sponsored by Rally-Tech, Great North Performance)