Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
Posted by Anders Green
Eric Wages Professional Moderator Location: Goose Creek, SC Join Date: 12/09/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 280 Rally Car: 2002 WRX |
Banned Elite Moderator Location: Red Deer, Alberta Join Date: 09/13/2011 Posts: 717 Rally Car: 2002 Subaru WRX STi |
Eric Wages Professional Moderator Location: Goose Creek, SC Join Date: 12/09/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 280 Rally Car: 2002 WRX |
Anders Green Ultra Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
A.J. Johnson Junior Moderator Location: Pendleton OR Join Date: 01/07/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 1,381 Rally Car: 88 Audi 80 |
Aaron Luptak Ultra Moderator Location: SLC Join Date: 02/15/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 776 Rally Car: Civic... |
Now imagine how big rally would be in Canada if only they had trading cards!
  KF7RWG 
http://www.utahrallygroup.com |
Anders Green Ultra Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
Anders Green Ultra Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
MUCH more analysis would be needed to get accurate numbers for this, but just by looking
Percentage of the country's population that is a three hour drive or less from a very unpopulated area, suitable to putting on rallies: Canada: 90% (guess) USA: 5% (guess) 
 Grassroots rally. It's what I think about. |
Alex Staidle Senior Moderator Location: Δx = ħ/2Δp Join Date: 08/21/2009 Age: Settling Down Posts: 1,719 Rally Car: Various Heaps |
Banned Elite Moderator Location: Red Deer, Alberta Join Date: 09/13/2011 Posts: 717 Rally Car: 2002 Subaru WRX STi |
I would agree. However, to your point... you're saying some place like COLORADO would be rally heaven? Amirite?! 
Oh god, why did you have to provide the ammo for that Anders? WHY?! I do agree it's not cut and dry, but then again, there are ideas that the US (generalization here) has NOT tried with all feet in. I like your desire and willingness to try new things with NASA, but is that really the way to grow the sport? Who knows. Is NASA growing? Is it shrinking? Are more events being added? How "strong" are the championships? Also, while it would kill many people to admit it, Canadians and Americans are (IMO) more similiar than they are different. We have the same kinds of people you do (roundy round and drag racing is HUGE in Canada) and face many of the same obstacles. All of our dirt roads in Alberta are designed for huge oilfield and forestry equipment to go down (smooth, straight, wide open), we have trouble finding roads too. Oh, and said roads are owned by the companies who want nothing to do with the liability associated with racing (generalization). Beyond that, it's not the lack of events that is killing you. If someone wants to rally, they are going to rally. How much they rally will be affected by things like travel distance, tow costs, and time off, but they will at least be out racing in one form or another. Your higher population density should benefit rally, not detract (if looking at a lot of the developed world in comparison). Look at RNY, the tarmac event takes place a little over 1.5 hours (IIRC) from New York City, the largest city (and most dense area) of the US! A certain individual contacted me about how Canadian rallying works. I told them to talk to Keith. I think the club structure is something that would work FOR the benefit of rallyists in the US, as well as events/organizations being not-for-profit, Keith has painted the picture well enough. Why there would be profit to be made at a volunteer ran event is beyond me (that doesn't go back into the event), but I digress. I know the SCCA left a bad taste in everyone's mouth, but that is the SCCA's fault, not the system that was utilized (and still, afaik, for profit). Edit- And I'm not saying you guys are doing it wrong... but to say that it is simply your culture/country that causes there to be a disproportionally small rally community is being dishonest IMO. I find it VERY hard to accept that as with many things, the US is "different", just because it's the US. Does the US even have DOUBLE the unique competitors Canada has? You said there were 27 (29?) events last year in the US. Canada had 17 (marth may be bad here), and there are no events in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, PEI, or the territories. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2012 09:30PM by HiTempguy. |
Wilson von Kessler Ultra Moderator Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,127 Rally Car: Colts are in Finland; now '87 325i, '89 325i |
Anders Green Ultra Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
Ha! The ammo is there because it's there.  I can't claim to know something when I'm just guessing and pondering. I know other folks don't have the same compulsion. 
And yeah, Colorado _does_ have some good geographical features that say it should work. _Should_. 
NRS, like every rally organization in the US, had fewer entries in 2011 than in 2010. Our drop was about 4%. 0ther organizations dropped about 13%. So I'd say that we're doing just fine, especially in that we're still the ones that are in the black every year. I feel that trying new things is what you _have_ to do. Some things will work, some won't. The alternative (try nothing) doesn't seem like a responsible path. As far as all feet in, phew... well, we can only do what we can do. To get other people to cooperate with one's ideas when they have their own agendas is difficult. Lord knows we've offered. I've offered cheaper insurance, scoring technology, pr information, a tarmac event for their championship... all turned down. That doesn't mean I shouldn't forge ahead with my own ideas of what might work... in fact, it means that I _have_ to, since other people won't. Yup, and they unfortunately had to cancel an event last year due to not enough people signing up. The world is full of complexity, nuance, and unexplainable phenomena.
The club structure _would_ be good. Now, just get someone to do it!
profit/non-profit/not-for-profit... It doesn't make much difference. The events still need to try to make as much money as they can, to build a buffer against things that go wrong, replace equipment, whatever. Like, we had a surprise $5,000 bill for busted chicanes at RTN one year. And in 6 years of organizing rallies, no sponsor or advertiser I've dealt with has made a decision based on the tax status. Not-for-profit/non-profit _does_ mean more paperwork/expense come tax time though. Nothing is a magic bullet: the CEO for the non-profit Susan G. Komen Breast Cancer Foundation made $417,171 in 2010. 
Probably not. Does CARS (or anyone) even have an accurate number on the driver count? They could get a person count from the licenses sold, but they don't sell separate driver/nav licenses, do they? I usually look at driver count as the core number since it corresponds more directly to the number of cars and entries in a year. Cheers, Anders Grassroots rally. It's what I think about. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2012 09:37AM by Anders Green. |
steve czwalga Mod Moderator Location: Pittsburgh, PA Join Date: 09/16/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 376 Rally Car: 95 awd celica |
pretty well said. I dont even know of a suitable 'rally type' road I could go practice (if it were legal ) within an hours drive of me. I'm sure there are some out there but I havent found them.
Lets be honest, a lot of rally drivers in Canada probably were tearing ass down a gravel road when they turned 16 in their parents car. As anything it progresses into something more. |
Grant Hughes Junior Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
Banned Elite Moderator Location: Red Deer, Alberta Join Date: 09/13/2011 Posts: 717 Rally Car: 2002 Subaru WRX STi |
CARS does sell seperate driver/nav licences. Terry Epp stated that there were just over 400 unique drivers last year (unless he meant licences overall, but I swear I asked him to clarify and he said drivers... Keith, as always, knows the actual answer), an all time low in well over a decade by his understanding. He (Terry) is convinced rally is dieing as well, so your not alone North of the border on your stance with this subject I argue that the competitors we are keeping are more likely in it for the long haul/are "strong" competitors, but that would require some actual number crunching to verify.
By the way, this discussion is really great, I appreciate being able to hear (and hopefully understand) better the issues facing rally in North America. I think we are in agreeance Anders on that sometimes the WHY is just nowhere to be found. Again, we've had great growth, even during the recession it wasn't bad compared to 1999-2001, whereas SCCA prorally was (IMO, from what I've found and read, Maine 2000 had almost 100 entries?!) booming with large entries at lots of events. I'm trying to figure out WHY we've seen the growth we have, and as far as I can tell, a lot seems to be word of mouth. Grant, that is a really unfortunate situation you face, government agencies can be terrible to deal with. However, an event 100 miles (or even 200 miles) out of Denver isn't so bad! Just means you have to wake up a bit earlier in the morning to head out
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