JVAB for RS 2.5

Oval shock internals are what I was thinking . I know the Ohlin pistons will go in the 50mm Bilstiens.

What about using hydraulic cylinders and having the inside lathed for the pistons you want? Seems pretty simple for your average machine shop. Worst case would be to bore them and send them to be honed for fit.

As long as we're blue-skying, if you want infinite-er adjustability than Bilstein stuff, why not Penske stuff? They sell a steel body off the shelf (not as smooth as the actual Bilstein strut inserts because it's not made for that but hey, I bet someone has thoughts on how to fix that) and then voila all the uber trick internals fit. Hell, someone already converted them to inverted struts for Porsche stuff, so it can't be rocket surgery. The OD for the steel bodies is even more or less 50mm too! Then all you need to do is put some nice inexpensive (ha!) Staubli fittings through the pin at top for the external canister, and you've got as many adjustments as you want to pay for, because knobs are great and all, eh?

(I've thought a bit about this actually, does it show?)

Penski was my first thought also. Penski tubes are 52mm and Ohlin,Bilstiens are 50mm.

If I were to pic 50mm or 52mm I would probably lean more towards 50mm for more piston options and more tech support. Bilstien 50mm oval shocks are every where cheap.

I also like the idea of the external canister. You can get rid of the separator piston and gang even more travel (droop)with a shorter shock

I dont know how much the Bilstien tubes are but I think you could build your own and still be under $750.00 per corner. Maybe a little room for some profit even?

The uber trick stuff is out there already (for the 'popular' rally cars), there's really not much need to try and reinvent the wheel here...just get out your checkbook:

Ohlins - $10k
Penske - $9k
RS&SP - $6k
Hotbits - IDK

The great thing about the JVAB stuff is it works damn good and chances are pretty good if you have a 'popular' rally car, John's already got the specs for it and can cook you up a set for a good price.

If you're an idiot like me that has to be different (BMW Compact), sometimes there's a little trial and error to get things juuuuust right. Sure I could've gone with some of the fancy stuff the guys in Europe were using, but many of the low buck guys running that car were more focused on tarmac rallies, so most of their solutions weren't a great fit. Proflex had off the shelf options, but at $7500, they don't fit the privateer budget.

Dave

Well yeah you can just go buy shit, everybody knows that. We are talking about what inserts we might put in our tubes when/if we can't get Bilstiens for some reason, or just want to change for the hell of it.

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Brap Brap.

I know where to get Bilstein equivalent (quite literally identical with the body tubing coming from the same mill Bilstein uses and interchangeable pistons/valving parts) 40mm and 50mm inserts made with any valving you desire. It just takes a minimum order of 100pcs+ to get them made and they'll run ~$120 an insert. You all could be rich!!! It would only take what, 3-4 years to sell that many inserts while floating the initial investment money? There's a reason everyone puts up with the slow delivery. Bilsteins are dirt cheap for the performance they offer and incredibly consistent.

For me its not about getting rich its about using the stuff I have been using in other racing and not paying top dollar for some simple tube that has a smooth body.

If JVL is already making the threaded bodies for his shocks why cant he also make the inserts. He evidently knows his way around a lathe. An old (1999, 2000) but good used cnc lathe can be had for 3 to 5K Write a program and watch it go. He can also use that handy cnc lathe to make him lots of other things plus the investmint wont hit any trees. You may be able to anodize them green even.

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Reamer
For me its not about getting rich its about using the stuff I have been using in other racing and not paying top dollar for some simple tube that has a smooth body.

If JVL is already making the threaded bodies for his shocks why cant he also make the inserts. He evidently knows his way around a lathe. An old (1999, 2000) but good used cnc lathe can be had for 3 to 5K Write a program and watch it go. He can also use that handy cnc lathe to make him lots of other things plus the investmint wont hit any trees. You may be able to anodize them green even.

That is an adorably naive statement on so many levels. Sorry if that statement makes me sound like a dick. I do this sort of thing for a living and have multiple college friends who have worked for shock companies.

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SteveL
Hey Jason, how did Brianne fair at Pikes Peak?

(Loaded Question)

She won. Really. Girl wins AWD Time Attack.

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Tim Taylor
I know where to get Bilstein equivalent (quite literally identical with the body tubing coming from the same mill Bilstein uses and interchangeable pistons/valving parts) 40mm and 50mm inserts made with any valving you desire. It just takes a minimum order of 100pcs+ to get them made and they'll run ~$120 an insert. You all could be rich!!! It would only take what, 3-4 years to sell that many inserts while floating the initial investment money? There's a reason everyone puts up with the slow delivery. Bilsteins are dirt cheap for the performance they offer and incredibly consistent.

Thanks Tim, that's the essence of the problem.
And boys--don't overlook the bit Tim says about consistency. It's not that I'm 100% dinosaur that I am so anti-adjustable in car stuff.

I'm anti adjustable because all of the stuff which are adjustable either: are so compact with the adjuster that minimal movement of the screw equal drastic changes in damp force,
OR
cost millions.

So while adjusters are nice, the problem becomes: what IS the damping force once you've moved the adjuster what you think is 'this much"?

additionally, even when there are clickers---positive stops--for the adjusters--- sometimes each click is fairly large. On Bilstein PS9 stuff that some silly conesquisher Xratty guys rave about that they "discovered" I looked up the compression and rebound numbers and while each click's numbers look good match there were two problems I saw: a) each click step was large enough that I believe (yeah what da fawk do I know anyway, huh?) that you'd want different springs per click and
b)on the units they were raving about all but the 2 lightest settings would be absurdly stiff on a car the size , weigh and power of an Xratty...

I always say that for us every stage starts at zero mph and we go as fast as we dare on the straights whatever that may be. That means EVERY stage has such a wide range of speeds (not to mention surface, bumps etc) that it become virtually impossible to make stuff 'work perfectly" over that speed range, let alone all the other factors.
So we arrive at a good, consistent function for the "typical" speed range and make sure it is not too "off' for very low speeds 25 and under say or nothing "bad' occurring at the highest speeds---which we really only see occasionally on relatively smooth roads.

A good compromise. And so far, it seems, aside from that annoying kick that Dave Kern is having in the Bowel movement Wonder, it sure seems like the dampers and inserts have work fine, and in the words of probably the fastest driver with my stuff, Chris Martin in Canada, "can't really see any remarkable difference tween them and the _______________ (whatever the multi-thousand dollar things he got as a sponsorship deal)".

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Tim Taylor

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Reamer
For me its not about getting rich its about using the stuff I have been using in other racing and not paying top dollar for some simple tube that has a smooth body.

If JVL is already making the threaded bodies for his shocks why cant he also make the inserts. He evidently knows his way around a lathe. An old (1999, 2000) but good used cnc lathe can be had for 3 to 5K Write a program and watch it go. He can also use that handy cnc lathe to make him lots of other things plus the investmint wont hit any trees. You may be able to anodize them green even.

That is an adorably naive statement on so many levels. Sorry if that statement makes me sound like a dick. I do this sort of thing for a living and have multiple college friends who have worked for shock companies.

Yeah, Tim just write a program fro doing an ID grind 12.5" down the hole and an OD grind. It's just a couple of keystrokes and just sit back....

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John,

The bilstiens are great...don't get me wrong.

I did say tho, that these other things do make a difference. the difference came when things get really rough, and we could tune the adjusters. The car just drives over the stuff and instills confidence, even more than the bilstiens did. But that's not the say the bilstiens were bad, IMHO they were better than alot of stuff, but i know now where they gave up time.

I guess I deserve that response. I reread my post and I was being a dick. At the same time I dont get why you think a tube is so high tech. If JVL can straighten bent tubes and they still work that tells me there not that crucial in size. Thats why pistons have rings.

You can buy hydraulic shafts polished with the right OD. All you would need to do is bore, hone and thread the first 3/4" of the ID. You wont have those pos rings like Bilstien has but a threaded end like every other performance shock.

I may be naive but I do believe this is very doable at most machine shops. I myself think you guys are naive to think these are that complicated that gear heads cant build them. The piston and shim stacks are what make the shock so consistent so you can still run the same valving. just in your own tube.

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Reamer
I guess I deserve that response. I reread my post and I was being a dick. At the same time I dont get why you think a tube is so high tech. If JVL can straighten bent tubes and they still work that tells me there not that crucial in size. Thats why pistons have rings.

I never said a tube was high tech, only that making them yourself was not cost effective and the volume is not there to make them cost effective. Nobody is straitening bent tubes...if you bend a tube it's done. Sometimes bent pins at the end of the tubes because they're soft can be tweaked back and some bent shafts can be saved. The wear band on most pistons will accommodate very little iregularity before things go funny. On external bypass shocks the bodies must be re-honed after welding the tubes or the pistons stick.

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You can buy hydraulic shafts polished with the right OD. All you would need to do is bore, hone and thread the first 3/4" of the ID. You wont have those pos rings like Bilstien has but a threaded end like every other performance shock.

Again, not cost effective. The Bilsteins are cheap because the raw tube comes from the mill on size with the bore ready to go. Oh and you forgot the step where you send them out to have the exterior hard chromed and the OD ground.

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I may be naive but I do believe this is very doable at most machine shops. I myself think you guys are naive to think these are that complicated that gear heads cant build them.

Again, never said it couldn't be done even by a hobby guy in a garage. Just start adding up all the minimum lot charges from the machine shop, the honing shop, the plating shop, and the grinding shop. Betcha you are at least double or triple what a Bilstein costs.

I get what your saying. I still dont see the huge cost. I wasnt figuring plating or grinding OD because the hydraulic shaft already has that done. None of my shocks are plated on the inside just honed. If I have to buy 100 at $120 a piece then having 8 made is way cheaper. My plan was to run my Ohlin valving in the Bilstien tubes. I didnt think I could get 50mm tubes from Bilstien if I can then I will go that route.