How would YOU "save" Rallying in N.A.?
Posted by Greg Donovan
mothra Matt Smith Ultra Moderator Location: Wilmington NC Join Date: 03/31/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 546 Rally Car: xr4ti |
tipo158 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > mothra Wrote: > > Yeah, RA seems to have their heads up their > > collective asses but rally seems to be > thriving in > > spite of that outside of the the RA national > > series. > > Oh, please elaborate. I would like to know how > far up my a$$ my head is. > > alan > > > > > Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jun 11, 2008 by > tipo158. I am feeling lazy and I think Grant summarized it well in the quote below. Even well-intentioned people can put their heads up their asses. Plus so far MJ is the only non acion sports star to benefit from the RA approach (Tanner made is name in drfting). Few US rally drivers are benefiting from the exposure in my opinion. Broken record on here. Yes, Rally America and some factions within the USRC have their heads up their asses in the arrogance of their approach. That in order for rally to survive they have to up the bar, increase exposure, make unobtainable upper levels of the sport that require huge personal investments into the sport that no competitor ever expects to get returned, etc. Rather than following the well established precedents set in every other country in the world where rally is huge and successful, which is to start out with a more regional/low level event focus. You get 100-200 competitors per event, build good regional championships, get a few thousand competitors nationwide, and a solid and profitable national championship can grow out of that. The biggest fans are the friends and family of competitors, not the current influx of red bull drinking, fox racing wearing, arrogant douchebags that seem to litter the parc exposes these days. The best way to find sponsors is to have lots of competitors so there is a higher perceived value to the sport, and the sponsors should be locally focused. Matt Smith Racing in glorious black and red My daily life is a Saab story (sold!) |
tipo158 Alan Perry Junior Moderator Location: Bainbridge Island, WA Join Date: 02/20/2008 Age: Ancient Posts: 430 |
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mothra Matt Smith Ultra Moderator Location: Wilmington NC Join Date: 03/31/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 546 Rally Car: xr4ti |
tipo158 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > > Two comments: > > a. Just because RA is doing the things that you > think that they should be doing doesn't mean that > their head is up their a$$. Reasonable people can > disagree. > True enough and Alan you appear to be one of the reasonable ones. I have talked to a few RA folks that I would be hard pressed to call reasonable. > b. A strong regional program is not incompatible > with a big-show national series. > Observing the RA program settle in over the last few years and participating in exactly one RA event as a regional competitor I thinnk they are a long ways from providing a strong regional program. I think it is a huge challenge to make the to compatible. There is nothing wrong with focusing on one or the other. RA seems to be focusing on the big-show. What I dislike and disagree with is the RA concept of trinkle down opportunity and expansion (i.e. a strong big-show will grow a strong regional series). It didn't worrk for economomics and it won't work for rally. > > Still this is by far the best discussion on these philosophies I have seen in a long time. Matt Smith Racing in glorious black and red My daily life is a Saab story (sold!) |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Elite Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
To part b: No it's not, but a strong regional program should come before a strong national program, which is the exact opposite stance RA has taken.
How many years has it been now and you still have to dig and go to the old site to find out about regional results. Though it appears some events, like Gravity Park 1 have some info on the main site if you dig for it, it's not much with no results and definitely no effort to maintain anything related to the regional series. We are trying to get to the golden egg without ever raising a chicken. That's the best analogy I can come up with with what is wrong with US rally as I see it. I stick with heads up the asses on some things. Rally New York trying to be a WRC event, a rally event in Florida with 5000 spectators? I'll believe it when I see it. Turning US rally into even more of a spectacle and playground for the rich and famous in the hopes of landing a series sponsor for events with 15 cars that are all driven by multi-millionaire former action sports competitors, thereby increasing entry fees for all (due to lack of entries), further reducing the number of competitors, burning out organizers who are losing money, and on and on and on and on... Grant Hughes |
turoc Ozgur Simsek Junior Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
When I called RA a year and a half ago to find out whether or not my car was issued a logbook in the past the answer was "No, I dont recall a car that colour out of NY" Is that reasonble or proffesional? I asked to see if there was a proper way to check besides recollection of an individual and was answered "NO" I also specified who raced/built it (Built and raced by People that have run RA events including STPR) and he had no memory of them either! I am sure most of you guys know who ran the fox kit car, right?
It certainly was a turn off since I would have loved to compete at STPR last year. BTW I was finally able to get in touch with the original owner whom did race the car at BRS 98 or 99. Do not know what happened with logbook as the car had not competed since and had changed hands about 4 times prior to me purchasing. So I would also assume some people have their heads up wherever. rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!! Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2008 05:43PM by turoc. |
tipo158 Alan Perry Junior Moderator Location: Bainbridge Island, WA Join Date: 02/20/2008 Age: Ancient Posts: 430 |
mothra Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > tipo158 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > Two comments: > > > > a. Just because RA is doing the things that you > > think that they should be doing doesn't mean that > > their head is up their a$$. Reasonable people can > > disagree. > > True enough and Alan you appear to be one of the > reasonable ones. I have talked to a few RA folks > that I would be hard pressed to call reasonable. I talk to most of the other RA folks somewhat frequently and I find them to be reasonable, but sometimes I disagree with their priorities. I think that that is the real problem. > > b. A strong regional program is not incompatible > > with a big-show national series. > > Observing the RA program settle in over the last > few years and participating in exactly one RA > event as a regional competitor I think they are a > long ways from providing a strong regional > program. I think it is a huge challenge to make > the to compatible. There is nothing wrong with > focusing on one or the other. RA seems to be > focusing on the big-show. What I dislike and > disagree with is the RA concept of trickle down > opportunity and expansion (i.e. a strong big-show > will grow a strong regional series). It didn't > work for economics and it won't work for rally. As I see it, the regional program should be driven by the region. The more sanction body (either one) stays out of the way, the better. I think that they both do that. Between ORG, PRG and the BC guys, I think that we have a strong regional program up here in the PNW. Costs are a problem, but, aside from the H&NR requirement, the sanction body costs are pretty much the same. I would type more, but I am being called to dinner ... alan |
gkd George Doganis Mod Moderator Location: San Diego Join Date: 03/25/2007 Age: Ancient Posts: 94 Rally Car: Civic |
Michel,
I definitely appreciate your efforts and sacrifice to put on the North Nevada Rally. I strongly dislike the rough car breaker events because they simply cause a lot of expensive wear and tear that only the rich can afford. Thank you for offering an event that uses smoother roads than what I usually run on. My single biggest avoidable rally induced expense has been from the super rough roads I run on most of the time. Next year, I will reduce my costs by going to smoother events only, even of they are further away. George Civic Rally Car |
SEANT SEAN TENNIS Godlike Moderator Location: SEATTLE Join Date: 01/23/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 275 Rally Car: SAAB 99, SAAB 96 850, SAAB 99T, SAAB V4 |
tipo158 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > > Two comments: > > a. Just because RA is doing the things that you > think that they should be doing doesn't mean that > their head is up their a$$. Reasonable people can > disagree. > I'm guessing that you meant "shouldn't be doing"! I'll say this, it's the same as the Spitzner years, his grand vision of how rally should be, a grand failure is what it turned out to be! Still trying to build a pyramid from the top down... Say where is that national series sponsor, how many teams actually run the full national series, how about all those different factories and their teams, aside from an increase in exspenses where are we now and how are things better or improving? > b. A strong regional program is not incompatible > with a big-show national series. It is when the organizers focus is more on the national events. It sounds as if Colorado has the starts of something that I would like to hear more of, also how it came to be. Ray and Co. also are doing something right in putting on a great event that is affordable at todays prices', it would be great to have more of these. If it comes across as I'm bashing a sanctioning body or Organizer/s please for give me as that is not my intent, like the rest of us I would like to see more affordable events and more competitors. What appears to be clear is the current system is frustrating many folks... As always IMHO SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR SEATTLE, WASHINGTON SAAB 99, SAAB 850 SAAB V4, SAAB 99T |
Sofa King Monika Hawkinson Godlike Moderator Location: Seattle Join Date: 12/18/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 240 Rally Car: 2006 Tacoma |
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SEANT SEAN TENNIS Godlike Moderator Location: SEATTLE Join Date: 01/23/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 275 Rally Car: SAAB 99, SAAB 96 850, SAAB 99T, SAAB V4 |
Sofa King Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > I really think there just aren't enough people > involved in rally organizing in this country to > have strong regional series AND a big-show > national series. > The local Seattle club use to put on 2 nationals a year and a club event, then SCCA said we had to many Nationals in this state, 3 at that time, so we cut 2, next year SCCA said the national series had to few events and asked if we would put them on again as a national... club decided no! Then there was an increase in sanctioning fees an entry price had to go up, teams left the sport, the club put events on for a few more years loosing money as there was 15-20 teams at most that would show, down from 50-70, and then quit organizing stage rallies. This of course was tied into links with land owners that was no longer cultivated and so went the downward spiral... Less people in the area then and that may have made things easier, I don't know. I will say that trying to drive to Olympia on a week night from North Seattle to attend an organising meeting is difficult, did it several times, but traffic is too unpredictable, I've spent hours setting in traffic before turning around and going home as the meeting would be over, or nearly so by the time I/we could make it. As always IMHO SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR SEATTLE, WASHINGTON SAAB 99, SAAB 850 SAAB V4, SAAB 99T |
heymagic Banned Super Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
If YOU guys ( in Seattle) learned to drive better....
Most of our core group lives in or near Olympia. Ron Barker drives in from Grayland. Others from Montesano, Elma, Centrallia, Bremerton, Bainbridge Island, Kent and so on. Along Seans thinking, there may be a need for something in between RallyX and rally. A C1 type event with slower speeds ( have to be picky on roads ). Something that allowed more of a rally nature and moderate speeds , yet didin't require full cages, maybe a 6 point cage. Stock seats, harness' , no HNRs etc. This might allow people to get involved on a bottom rung and build from there. As money allowed the cage could be completed, seats bought and cars upgraded. May be just a stupid idea though... We had a RallyX today . There is a "crowd" that competes in these. They are mostly rally fans, but I think only a very few will move up in the sport. I'd bet we get more workers that competitors from RallyX. We really enjoy RallyX these days, but it isn't rally by a long shot ! My son did win M2 his first time in that class in the old 323 though, whoohooo !! |
heymagic Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > If YOU guys ( in Seattle) learned to drive > better.... > > Most of our core group lives in or near Olympia. > Ron Barker drives in from Grayland. Others from > Montesano, Elma, Centrallia, Bremerton, Bainbridge > Island, Kent and so on. > > Along Seans thinking, there may be a need for > something in between RallyX and rally. A C1 type > event with slower speeds ( have to be picky on > roads ). Something that allowed more of a rally > nature and moderate speeds , yet didin't require > full cages, maybe a 6 point cage. Stock seats, > harness' , no HNRs etc. This might allow people to > get involved on a bottom rung and build from > there. As money allowed the cage could be > completed, seats bought and cars upgraded. May be > just a stupid idea though... > > We had a RallyX today . There is a "crowd" that > competes in these. They are mostly rally fans, but > I think only a very few will move up in the sport. > I'd bet we get more workers that competitors from > RallyX. We really enjoy RallyX these days, but it > isn't rally by a long shot ! My son did win M2 his > first time in that class in the old 323 though, > whoohooo !! Something close to European Rally Cross wouldn't require a lot of land and would help a lot at the grass root level. Just think about the amount of people that show up to the local 1/8 or 1/4 mile oval track. Andrew M Onterrible 30ish |
turoc Ozgur Simsek Junior Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
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As somebody who grew up watching the WRC and the british rally champs in england and now somebody who has a car in NA. Rally here will continue to struggle as long as RA keep kissing the ass of Subaru usa and rockstar.
Racing here unlike most domestic euro champs is still open checkbook racing. The BRc for example stopped this open checkbook fiasco a couple of years back and now make the top teams including the Higgins conform to grp N so that the privateer now stands a chance of running with the big boys. To me this makes much more sense and more cost affective. Yes before somebody points out that we tried grp N and it faded out but now look at the state of rallying in the US it is hardly anything to be proud off, and 2 cars anyway just keep running away with the races as along as they stay sunny side up race after race because there checkbooks are simply bigger not because they are far superior drivers. As long as we continue along this road with the way our economy is going fewer and fewer people will be racing, and less and less raceswill take place because of lack of entries to operate. |
turoc Ozgur Simsek Junior Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
Group N is not any cheaper than Open. The difference between US and the rest of the world is that Group A also restricts the parts to be used. These parts still have to be homologated unlike parts that could be used in US Open Class. You could get a competitive Open Class car such as Iorio's for a whole lot less than a Group N car in similar or poorer condition. A couple of years ago there was a good article on this in Grassrootsmotorsports.
There should be restrictions on #tires allowed to be used, race fuel, engine output, sealed motors allowed to be rebuilt once a season or so etc... rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!! |
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