How would YOU "save" Rallying in N.A.?

why are we still talking about the cars?

change the competitor application.

who cares how many tires you run.....show me the receipt for those tires, if its not billed to you and paid by you individually, then you pay a $XXXXX fee.

More than 5 service crew members? $2000 per service crew after that.

you show up in an a semi (or two, or three) with a big 'SUBARU' or 'MONSTER' logo on the side? $10,000 please.

please show all the receipts for your suspension, engine, and other 'go fast' bits....if you spent less than $20K your fee is $600

$20-$70K - $1500

$70-150K - $2500

+$150K - $5000
(safety equipment is not part of this metric...you will not be penalized for going hog wild to make your car safer. In fact, maybe you have certain safety equipment that gives you 'credit' on the performance side.)


standardize this across all events per sanctioning body, fees are paid to the sactioning body which handles all the accounting and distributes the cash accordingly. Accounting records are available for public display upon request. Prizes are funded from this account....so are fees now availble to volunteers, organizers, etc.

^^has this been tried anywhere for rally?


This is not a pipe dream, this is what we do at FRX (www.FormulaRallyX.com) at the rallycross level. Some of our events don't make money....that's ok, because some do....they balance out because we have a central organization that monitors all of this and has a single point of 'cash deposits'. Organizers are paid $250/day...on top of that we have corporate contracts with United Rentals for equipment.....they bill FRX, FRX pays the bills. Extra cash goes towards cones, prize funds, etc.

The MAIN point of this is NONE of our venues are suffering, no one is personally ever out money from their pocket (anymore), and we have a healthy schedule today, and the business model to keep it viable for a long time (and its growing).

this is what I would do if someone made me head RA honcho today....some form of the above would be implemented tomorrow.

just my .02....in my humble (and inexperienced) opinion.


(edited only for clarification and grammar)

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2008 11:31AM by Jon Burke.

How would a GRP N USA equivilant not be cheaper than open cheque book racing, I do agree though that there should be one manufacturer of tires a specified fuel type ie E85, that would be randomly tested, a specific engine cc depending on class and manufacturer, which would be sealed after tech, this surely would make rallying in the USA more entertaining which at the moment would not be hard, with those current bunch of empty heads running RA, who are so far removed fom rallying it is unbelievable

Jon Burke Wrote:
> Organizers are paid $250/day...

Awesome plan! The first time I organized Sandblast, it took 450 hours, or 56.25 days. Where's my $14,065.50?

Oh, then another two years of that, plus RTN for two years, so it looks like I'm due $70,312.60. Sweet! Ok, so the second year was easier than the first. Let's call it an even $50,000 and everyone can go home happy.

If there's a vote, I'll vote you in immediately, and expect my check shortly after. *grin*

Cheers,
Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

HA!

they're rallyX's man! one day....in and out.

wait, that's what she said!


Seriously though, better than worrying about losing money on an event??? and yes, running a stage rally event would entail a larger 'organizers fee' to cover time/expenses.

but with block, pastrana, pinker, etc paying $10K each....no worries, eh?

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2008 01:37PM by Jon Burke.

What about people that get $20 hand me down tires, does their entry fee get jacked because of that? Do they have to provide some "receipt" for those tires that they bought off one of their buddies? What about the guys that spend $6000 for a used rally car, do they have to break down the individual cost of all the components of their car to figure out their entry fee? Or car that cost $30k to build and sells used for $15, how does that figure in? What about the team that brings along his 3 brothers, dad, and 2 buddies from work for service crew, do they have to pay $2000 extra?

I musta missed the part where it says someone who managed to do well financially is some how responsible to support the ones that didn't. I guess that someone with a nicer house than mine should pay some of my homeowner costs ?

What is the maximum yearly income that we should allow before penalizing competitors ? I assume that only those above the threshold will be limited on tires, crews and engines. Will it be a sliding scale or all encompassing ?

Will this new form of censorship be sanctioning body or organizer regulated ? Do we send out a financial statement with the entry form?

What is America coming to ? What ever happened to work hard, work smart , enjoy the fruits of your labor ?

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I musta missed the part where it says someone who
> managed to do well financially is some how
> responsible to support the ones that didn't.

I find it particularly interesting given that the individual who made the suggestion admittedly makes an income (a single income) above the 90th percentile for HOUSEHOLDS in the US...

Perhaps he is simply unaware of his relative position in the world. Or, he is altruistic and feels compelled to pay more for his entry fees to help offset costs for those less fortunate.

jimminy christmas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I musta missed the part where it says someone
> who
> > managed to do well financially is some how
> > responsible to support the ones that didn't.
>
>
> I find it particularly interesting given that the
> individual who made the suggestion admittedly
> makes an income (a single income) above the 90th
> percentile for HOUSEHOLDS in the US...
>
> Perhaps he is simply unaware of his relative
> position in the world. Or, he is altruistic and
> feels compelled to pay more for his entry fees to
> help offset costs for those less fortunate.
>
>
>


I'm waiting to get some more feedback before I answer carl and gene's questions/points, but I'm curious to know how my personal financial situation is interesting/relevant in this discussion?

In fact, its not, so lets keep it on topic, eh?

I also live with 2 roommates, so?
Also, can you post your real name please? forum rule.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Jon Burke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jimminy christmas Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > heymagic Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I musta missed the part where it says
> someone
> > who
> > > managed to do well financially is some
> how
> > > responsible to support the ones that
> didn't.
> >
> >
> > I find it particularly interesting given that
> the
> > individual who made the suggestion
> admittedly
> > makes an income (a single income) above the
> 90th
> > percentile for HOUSEHOLDS in the US...
> >
> > Perhaps he is simply unaware of his relative
> > position in the world. Or, he is altruistic
> and
> > feels compelled to pay more for his entry
> fees to
> > help offset costs for those less fortunate.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> I'm waiting to get some more feedback before I
> answer carl and gene's questions/points, but I'm
> curious to know how my personal financial
> situation is interesting/relevant in this
> discussion?
>
> In fact, its not, so lets keep it on topic, eh?
>
> I also live with 2 roommates, so?
> Also, can you post your real name please? forum
> rule.
>
> Jon Burke - KI6LSW
> RallyX Team Up TwoMountains
> Team Blog:
>

Your income shouldn't be relevant, nor should mine or ACPs or Travis, Tanner or so on. Quite simply rally is a hobby, passtime, distraction etc. No one needs to rally or has any particular right to rally. If you can't afford it, you can't afford it. I don't see where it demands that everyone adjust the bar downward to the lowest common denominator. Should everyone move under an overpass and eat of a dumpster because some peole are forced (or choose) to ?

Honestly as an organizer I would rather deal with 30 cars that can afford the sport than 60 cars who can't. Same income, much less work.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> .............Quite simply rally is a hobby, passtime,
> distraction etc. No one needs to rally or has any particular
> right to rally. .................

Gene,

I'm gonna hafta take issue with you on this one. Corporate sponsors are not in Rally as a hobby, they're in it for profit. Hobby rallyists (Competitors or Volunteers) should not subsidise their Profits. Nobody has yet made the case that isn't taking place.

Rich Smith

That was my impression also. I don't think Jon Burke was implying "people" who make more should pay more, making it an issue of personal income and the ability to afford to rally, rather the corporate sponsored rally teams who have alot to gain by having their cars represented at a rally. If there are only 5 similarly built and backed corporate sponsored teams at a rally then the other 25 teams paying the same to compete in that rally the independant/hobbyist racers are in essence subsidizing the corporate sponsors due to the fact that the rally wouldn't exist without the "indy" competitors. It is a slippery slope asking the corporate sponsors to step up to a higher level, but if that's the case you could argue that there should be a Pro-Open Class *(corporate sponsored teams only) and then a National Open class for independants but only one overall winner based on fastest time.

Rich Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > .............Quite simply rally is a hobby,
> passtime,
> > distraction etc. No one needs to rally or has
> any particular
> > right to rally. .................
>
> Gene,
>
> I'm gonna hafta take issue with you on this one.
> Corporate sponsors are not in Rally as a hobby,
> they're in it for profit. Hobby rallyists
> (Competitors or Volunteers) should not subsidise
> their Profits. Nobody has yet made the case that
> isn't taking place.
>
> Rich Smith

But Rich,,,

Subaru, Michelin, Monster , whomever is not likely seeing any serious profit from rally in the states. Their participation is part of a larger advertising budget. Get the name out in front of the public. If you look at just the cost and return picture then you have Subaru pulling out of the Australian series, Hyundai and Mitsu pulling back and so on. Corporate America is the sole supporter of millions of Americans. They have bazillions invested in research, products, manufacturing, safe working conditions, medical and retirement, education grants and scholarships, civil projects and donations and even shareholder benefits. Corporate America has every right to a profit as far as I'm concerned.

Now lets talk rally...SRT/ Vermont teams have paid employess, earning a living. Vermont actually paid for the DooWop dinner 2 years ago. This was an event they had nothing to with. Subaru West has paid a lot out ( tens of thousands by now )for the regional banquets. Every worker,crew, competitor and organizer that wants a nice dinner and a place to tell lies get's it. Subaru West gives a great amount in donations for the worker bags. Subaru West is at most events in service cooking breakfast and lunch for anyone walking by.

Rally may or may not be too expensive, depends soley on individual outlooks. One glaring fact is that neither sanctioning bodies nor organizers are getting wealthy putting events on. I'll bet someone calling square dances makes more than a rally organizer. Personally I don't have any extra time to beat the bushes ( I'd make time for George ) trying to find ways or sponsors to lower an individuals costs. If I'm doing a bunch of work to increase an events income, maybe that money will go to myself and the volunteers.

People need to be responsible for their own course. If you can't afford rally then seek sponsorship, get an extra job, quit buying $4 lattees, only run a couple events, forget the Championship BS, whether it be regional, SouthWestern series or whatever. Points are just a hook to entrap people to participate more. Run the events you enjoy, skip the others.

Consider how many people have a 27 foot motorhome just sitting in the back yard to use on vacation once a year...maybe. Cost that out per "event"...it's all about what you want to spend your income on.

Rally is dangerous, risky, relies soley on volunteer help, someone elses land and has never been very popular in the states. Jamming the people who organize, sanction, sponsor or otherwise contribute or support rally is really a counter productive waste of time.

gpbullock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That was my impression also. I don't think Jon
> Burke was implying "people" who make more should
> pay more, making it an issue of personal income
> and the ability to afford to rally, rather the
> corporate sponsored rally teams who have alot to
> gain by having their cars represented at a rally.
> If there are only 5 similarly built and backed
> corporate sponsored teams at a rally then the
> other 25 teams paying the same to compete in that
> rally the independant/hobbyist racers are in
> essence subsidizing the corporate sponsors due to
> the fact that the rally wouldn't exist without the
> "indy" competitors. It is a slippery slope asking
> the corporate sponsors to step up to a higher
> level, but if that's the case you could argue that
> there should be a Pro-Open Class *(corporate
> sponsored teams only) and then a National Open
> class for independants but only one overall winner
> based on fastest time.


Thanks Mark, that was exactly my point.

and to Carl and Gene, your points are well taken, but I'd rather not discuss the fine details and get into the weeds on numbers and tier's that I just randomly made up in my head. Rather, I'd like to discuss the 'spirit' of it and how we could do something out of the box to take advantage of the obvious corporate interest in rally, but still keep its grassroots roots.


For example, everyone on here and over on SS.com agree's that the easiest cheapest way to get into rally is either build or buy a cheap 2wd vehicle, spend the bare minmum, and just DO it. Right? But what's the incentive? There's no REAL incentive other than time to race and smaller upfront costs.

With the above example, the INCENTIVE to build/buy/race a cheap 2wd vehicle is that you will KNOW what your expenses are for each event. $600. got it....perfect, thanks! done and done. how nice would that be?

now I'm not saying the #'s and tiers and stuff that I have up there are right or whatever, but do you see my point now? It drives a specific behavior that we all know is good for the sport.


I REALLY like Mark's idea of a 'Pro' class......maybe that's a better delineation instead of including financial statements with your entry fee. You still get the benefit of corporate sponsorship, and the grassroots guys still get to play as well.


my main point being......people need to start thinking outside of the box on stuff like this. Something needs to change, I'm not sure what, so I'm just throwing ideas out there...but trying to continue to do things the way 'they've always been done'.....well, what's that definition of 'insanity' again?

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2008 04:15PM by Jon Burke.

What I think would be good would be to insitute a Team Championship.
At each event a team designates which cars are running for them.

On the higher level of things, say Tanner Foust cant make it to a rally because he's off drifting that weekend. Rockstar can find another driver to fill in his spot. Maybe he does good, maybe he impresses VSC enough to have him take Pastrana's spot once Pastrana is a wrc champ...

On the more realistic side of things, maybe two regional guys "team" up and pool their resources. Cut out the redundancy of some service stuff, crew stuff, travel, hotels, etc.

Is a two car team more "sellable" to a sponsor?

And my friend just thought up another bonus. Have 4 cars on your team, 2 on the east coast/midwest 2 on the west coast. Then the team can contest the whole national series without having to tow across country.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2008 05:11PM by Carl S.

brc73 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How would a GRP N USA equivilant not be cheaper
> than open cheque book racing, I do agree though
> that there should be one manufacturer of tires a
> specified fuel type ie E85, that would be randomly
> tested, a specific engine cc depending on class
> and manufacturer, which would be sealed after
> tech, this surely would make rallying in the USA
> more entertaining which at the moment would not be
> hard, with those current bunch of empty heads
> running RA, who are so far removed fom rallying it
> is unbelievable

You can argue it one way and you can argue it the other.

I think the most effective way to keep costs reasonable would be to have a rule that in class X any competitor can buy your car for Y. There would of course have to be stipulations on this and the price would have to be reasonable. But it would stop a lot of the crazy spending.

Now I know that's pretty radical and a lot of people would be against it.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish