How would YOU "save" Rallying in N.A.?

Mark,

A lot of men have sweat blood, like you, in their efforts to keep rally alive these past 20 years. And, I salute you and your love for the sport. But, it really is time to connect the dots and take stock of the achievements… and the failures. To look with clear eyes at the tally of who benefits and who does not. I agree with you that it is important to remember the history of past efforts to “professionalize” the sport while keeping the “grassroots” alive with innovations like National & Division classes and graduated entry fees, and look again at the current state of the sport. But, the “big time” mindset took over. The grassroots are nearly gone. Is this what you personally wanted? I don't think so.

And I say this:
To the extent Stage Rally has successfully contributed to the health and development of the Grassroots, it has succeeded in developing and perpetuating the future of the Sport. But the converse is also very, very true.

It's time for the Grassroots to reach for daylight again.

Rich Smith




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2008 01:59AM by Rich Smith.

Rich Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mark,
>
> A lot of men have sweat blood, like you, in their
> efforts to keep rally alive these past 20 years.
> And, I salute you and your love for the sport.
> But, it really is time to connect the dots and
> take stock of the achievements… and the failures.
> To look with clear eyes at the tally of who
> benefits and who does not. I agree with you that
> it is important to remember the history of past
> efforts to “professionalize” the sport while
> keeping the “grassroots” alive with innovations
> like National & Division classes and graduated
> entry fees, and look again at the current state of
> the sport. But, the “big time” mindset took over.
> The grassroots are nearly gone. Is this what you
> personally wanted? I don't think so.
>
> And I say this:
> To the extent Stage Rally has successfully
> contributed to the health and development of the
> Grassroots, it has succeeded in developing and
> perpetuating the future of the Sport. But the
> converse is also very, very true.
>
> It's time for the Grassroots to reach for daylight
> again.
>
> Rich Smith
>
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jun 21, 2008 by Rich
> Smith.

To all things there is a season...I love that saying. It's something to live by. Everything has it's time in the sun. Life is all about change. Rally like everything else will change. It has to. Whether from lack of roads, enviro issues, technology advances, lack of volunteers, lack of interest and growth or the economy.

I'm sure different parts of the country have different issues to contend with. We just went to Grays Harbor County to try and find 5 more miles of road for DooWops . ( we have some surprises next year ). It needs to be close to the core rally, we don't want to transit 100 miles for a stage . They found a 3 mile road we can use. Not the best, but it'll do. When you look at ownership maps it becomes pretty daunting to find gravel or paved roads of enough length, with friendly ownership that can be closed down for an event. There are huge blocks of land that simply have no roads. There are roads that have a dozen different owners.

Thirty years ago you could travel hundreds of miles on Grays Harbor/Pacific County logging roads. Now they are gated every few miles. Many are patrolled. The Capitol Forest has washouts and blowdowns blocking many roads. Some roads have been deconstructed and are gone forever. Neither RA nor NRS have the ability to change that kind of obstacle.

Rally has to change to survive at all. The RallyMoto program is one change that is proving huge. Stadium and fender to fender events may be another. I don't know the final answer, of course any answer will change as times and cirumstances dictate. I will tell you that it doesn't evolve around 100 RWD 20 and 30 year old cars, bias ply tires, 100s of miles of un-permissioned roads and thousands of eager volunteers. Brent just went ot work a track day in Kent. It started at about 4 pm on a Thursday. The Alfa club I believe. Anyway the volunteers were all fed. 60 cars or more showed. $200 entry, an hour of track time. Brent gets $100 voucher for future events he wants to run. Easy to do,contained venue, no long treks, no stuck in the woods, no dust, lots of cars racing each other...EASY ..kinda like that big button on the tv ads. They turn away entries at every one of these, yet we get 30 some cars at DooWops and usually less at each rally after that. Certainly not RA, NRS, Subaru or Corporate Americas fault. It wasn't really better 30 years ago, just different.

To remember and honor our past is one thing, to be consumed by returning to it is another.

hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think the most effective way to keep costs
> reasonable would be to have a rule that in class X
> any competitor can buy your car for Y. There
> would of course have to be stipulations on this
> and the price would have to be reasonable. But it
> would stop a lot of the crazy spending.
>
> Now I know that's pretty radical and a lot of
> people would be against it.


This works pretty well in Hornetracing.
In Hornetracing the winning car gets claimed by the track and the owner of it gets paid $1000 as prize money for an enduro event. This keeps people from putting stupid money into their cars. Keeps the fields thick with junk too.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Hey BRC73.....

On this forumn we use our real names, and fill out the profile honestly.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

JohnLane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This works pretty well in Hornetracing.
> In Hornetracing the winning car gets claimed by
> the track and the owner of it gets paid $1000 as
> prize money for an enduro event. This keeps
> people from putting stupid money into their cars.
> Keeps the fields thick with junk too.

True.. but if you didn't have a mandatory buy when you win.. but a more informal "hey let's not put more than 30k into our cars guys" understanding, that could be enforced as a buy at say $35-40k if enough people thought bob has gone a bit far.

If you only had 25k in your car and and the rule was enforced and it was bought from you, you'd have 35k in your pocket.. sure you're probably pissed, but not too hard done by.

Which begs the question of where the money comes from, who owns it afterwards and what gets done with it if say the club bought.

Ideally it would be enough incentive to not put 60k in your car...

I don't think it needs to be said that all these numbers are straight out of my ass.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Rich Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mark,
>
> A lot of men have sweat blood, like you, in their
> efforts to keep rally alive these past 20 years.
> And, I salute you and your love for the sport.
> But, it really is time to connect the dots and
> take stock of the achievements… and the failures.
> To look with clear eyes at the tally of who
> benefits and who does not. I agree with you that
> it is important to remember the history of past
> efforts to “professionalize” the sport while
> keeping the “grassroots” alive with innovations
> like National & Division classes and graduated
> entry fees, and look again at the current state of
> the sport. But, the “big time” mindset took over.
> The grassroots are nearly gone. Is this what you
> personally wanted? I don't think so.

And I again am amazed that that you think the grassroots in nearly gone. What is going on in the PNW that I am missing? The dots seem to be connnected out here, at least for some events and organizers, and not just limited to one sanctioning body, IMO.

Sounds like you want to step back to what used to be known as Fast TSD's, at least here in the east. These had some average speeds on sections that made a car go pretty much balls out. But, these faded out, probably as organizers saw the liability become more and more of a real and potentially personally destroying issue. We have at lest 50 millions more people here in the US since the heyday of the Fast TSD, and a bunch or people who will mush more readily sue over things.

And BTW, stage rally in the US really got active over 40 years ago, with the guys in MI; with events like POR going to a form of stage format. It's been here a lot longer than 20 years.

BTW #2: Since lack of funds (for which I sympathize more than know, and to which I can still relate) seems to be core of your limitations in rally, can you come up with ome idea of what you CAN afford? Since the high cost of professionalizing the sport seems to be one of the thigns to drive people out, what entry fee and how many motel nights and so on CAN people afford to pay? This really needs to be answered or everyone chases their tails on this type of subject.

Regards,
Mark B.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2008 01:00PM by starion887.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mark, you didn't forget that NASCAR isn't only the
> Sprint series. They have every thing down to local
> tracks and small dollar racers. Kind of an apples
> and oranges comparison. As long as there is
> racing, there will be a spot for the little guy.
> Whether it is bracket racing,stock cars,
> NASA/SCCA/Conference roaad racing, karts, Formula
> V or Ford, RallyX, tough trucks and so on. There
> will always be a place for the "little guys".


Gene,

You seem to miss my point. Wanting to run with the big dogs can be fun' specialy if you maange a good finish just behind some of the top guys; it is a huge personal satisfaction. Running with Buffum was fun to a point, though I got a lot more fun running against my seed competition. The point is that wanting to run with TP will dissappear if things get big, just as runing with Richard Petty, Junior Johnson, Ned Jarrett, and such guys dissappeared for the lower end NASCAR guys. That's not an apples and oranges comparison at all; it's the reality of all racing when $$ get involved.

I bet I know more about the NASACAR lower levels than you. And let me tell you, many of the tracks in this region religiously avoid any NASCAR regional affiliation like the plague. It may be the NASCAR guys around here, but they exude a level of condescention and deisre to control things that really irks a lot of track operators and competitors alike. I personaly feel this flows down from the big $$ ned of the sport, but that my IMO.

Mark B.

I sure enjoy showing up the big dollars 4X4 guys with my 32 year old Volvo; even if only on the long straights!!

I sure appreciate the efforts of all those who put on events for us to play in the woods.

I don't care if we have big dollar$ guys to compete with.

I just want to play in the woods with my friends.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

brc73 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As somebody who grew up watching the WRC and the
> british rally champs in england and now somebody
> who has a car in NA. Rally here will continue to
> struggle as long as RA keep kissing the ass of
> Subaru usa and rockstar.
>
> Racing here unlike most domestic euro champs is
> still open checkbook racing. The BRc for example
> stopped this open checkbook fiasco a couple of
> years back and now make the top teams including
> the Higgins conform to grp N so that the privateer
> now stands a chance of running with the big boys.
> To me this makes much more sense and more cost
> affective. Yes before somebody points out that we
> tried grp N and it faded out but now look at the
> state of rallying in the US it is hardly anything
> to be proud off, and 2 cars anyway just keep
> running away with the races as along as they stay
> sunny side up race after race because there
> checkbooks are simply bigger not because they are
> far superior drivers.
>
> As long as we continue along this road with the
> way our economy is going fewer and fewer people
> will be racing, and less and less raceswill take
> place because of lack of entries to operate.


It is kind of funny how things look from the other side Jason.


Separate Thought: The problem with rallying is the priorities of far too many of the rallyists.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2008 03:25PM by JVLslittlebuddy.

JVLslittlebuddy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is kind of funny how things look from the other
> side Jason.
>
>
> The problem with rallying is the priorities of far
> too many of the rallyists.

I don't know if I get what you're driving at?

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JVLslittlebuddy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is kind of funny how things look from the
> other
> > side Jason.
> >
> >
> > The problem with rallying is the priorities
> of far
> > too many of the rallyists.
>
> I don't know if I get what you're driving at?
>
> Andrew McNally
> Hamilton ON
> 28


Sorry, those were two different thoughts.

It is just ironic seeing someone that has really poured a small fortune into a couple of different drivers over the last two years comment about open checkbook racing.


The other comment I think speaks for itself.

I have never come across such a passionate, yet disfunctional group. Everything is always wrong, or can be better. People complain about events being to expensive, or too far away, but then they find reasons and ways not to support far too many closer or less expensive rallies. We argue about what is wrong, about what others do, about what others should do, but far too few of us take the time to pursue the changes. This is a sport that demands so much of the individuals that sometimes people get consumed by that instead of looking to the broader picture.

We as a community are far too vocal about the negative, far too set in our own opinions and ways, and too quick to demand of others what too few of us are actually willing to do. I am not meaning to say that we should all be happy lovey and never make criticisms (that would potentially be worse) but far too few people are willing to look past what they find to be deficient and start working on real solutions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2008 04:12PM by JVLslittlebuddy.

Mark, I did miss your point, nothing new for me. I haven't been involved in the circle track game for a few years here. I used to crew on a NASCAR modified. There were 2 cars from Aberdeen that were very competitive. My point, feeble as it is, NASCAR still has programs for the little guy. Rally does also. I can't imagine rally will forget the regional program as all of the organizers are regional people so to speak.

Rally currently has some unique opportunities whereas a person can compete on the same roads at the same time as the current champion and top tier. My son has had ACPs crew service his car as well as he servicing for Andrew. That just doesn't happen everywhere.

I think grassroots is just fine in the NW. We have DooWops( 2 regionals), 2 or 3 regionals with Oregon Trail, 2 regionals with Olympus, the worker rally sprints,2 regionals for Wild West, Mt.Hood and several rally Xs. That's at least 10 point scoring rallies within 7 hours of many competitors. Most events are within 3 hours. Idaho Rally adds another event as well as Nevada and several in Canada. Oregon is looking at a couple of new venues so we may have more. I'd guess we have at least 60 cars that could compete with minimal effort.

The current organizers and volunteers are very dedicated, but I'm not sure we can really do anything more.

heymagic Wrote:

> The current organizers and volunteers are very
> dedicated, but I'm not sure we can really do
> anything more.

Except try and get the numbers OUT IN THE WOODs, and get them in cars a normal human being with a bit of a normal life can afford to beat on.

You may poo-poo older cars Gene but they ARE the mainstay of rallying WORLDWIDE and especially where rally is a mass-participation sport.

Just like dual-sport bikes can go towards making an event break even so can or could 20-30 MORE older rwd cars.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Kevin Hahn Wrote:
> We as a community are far too vocal about the
> negative, far too set in our own opinions and
> ways, and too quick to demand of others what too
> few of us are actually willing to do.

What I find interesting is the snippets I get from other sports every so often. Like, water polo. I popped in on a discussion board there. Guess what I found? Complaints about participation levels, exposure, growing the sport, cost of travel... and they only have to buy swim suits!

I wonder how many other sports are in the same situation (and by that I mean "not currently ridiculously exploding in popularity and a media darling, with passionate participants working on improving it" currently?

Anders

ps: yes, the water polo guys were arguing about the sanctioning bodies too! *grin*

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
>
> > The current organizers and volunteers are
> very
> > dedicated, but I'm not sure we can really do
> > anything more.
>
> Except try and get the numbers OUT IN THE WOODs,
> and get them in cars a normal human being with a
> bit of a normal life can afford to beat on.
>
> You may poo-poo older cars Gene but they ARE the
> mainstay of rallying WORLDWIDE and especially
> where rally is a mass-participation sport.
>
> Just like dual-sport bikes can go towards making
> an event break even so can or could 20-30 MORE
> older rwd cars.
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

John,

Absolutely not my job, nor any organizers, to recruit mass numbers of competitors into the sport. We currently have pretty close to ideal numbers as far as I can tell, at least on this coast.. Maybe more competitors in Kansas or would help. Rally is pretty much at it's limit on the west coast. There are rallies in maybe 10 to 12 states ?? Trying to increase that to say even 25 states is a monumental task. Since many expect that task to be done with no sponsorship, at no profit, by already existing overworked organizers, at prices the local paperboy could afford...who wants to undertake that? You have to find new roads, new workers, new competitors. You need all 3 pieces to that puzzle.

I like old cars, have several sitting here myself. But with old cars comes old technology, old rust. old hidden damage and hard to find parts. This is not the rest of the world, certainly not Europe. I can't make it Europe. Rally is a minor blip on the radar here. Want to see old cars compete ? Go to the drag strip or a circle track. That is what is popular in the States..not my fault. It is cheaper to build a NA Sube than an old Merkur. The cars are cheap to buy. Parts available in all wrecking yards. Perfomance parts available everywhere. Suspension available from a dozen affordable sources overnight. I can build a Sube without special rear axle adapters or Supra diffs or one of kind control arms or brakes or whatever.

If old Volvos, Merkurs, Datsuns were what people wanted to compete in they would. You do realize that Volvo doesn't doesn't make the 240 anymore and Ford dropped the Sierra ? Both in favor of FWD commuter cars.

Not my job, RA or NRS job to convince people to rally old cars. Just the same story with Jens and his electric wet dream. I help organize, RA/NRS provide the rule sets and insurance. Someone else needs to drive around recruiting.

Rally is a niche sport, I enjoy it, all of us enjoy. But it is what it is. I'm a realist. I see the obstacles and benefits with equal clarity.

John, we have a lot of similar ideas. Let me tell you that every stage needs around 20-25 volunteers. Start, finish, pace, sweep, medics and road guards. This is after someone sets the course, arrows and banner guards eveything. This takes days BTW. Say you're lucky enough to have 8 stages and can leap frog a couple crews. You still need 100 volunteers or so. People who aren't crewing or spectating. Someone who wants to stands for hours on end in the wet/dust/heat/ woods/cold waiting for a car to show up every minute and hopefully not get their ass chewed out because someone doesn't like the start order or time written down, or an instruction on the last stage.

Anyhow, this is the US of A and people have their own ideas about what to do with their free time on a weekend, if they get weekends off that is. Nothing anyone can realisticly due will influence people to rally old cars or new cars or donate roads or work events. Enjoy rally for what is it, PARTCIPATE in rally now, but don't be mean, devisive, bitter, insulting, abusive, unappreciative towards the people who go out of their way to provide this great pastime for our enjoyment.