Rally America Serious Problems

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Anders Green
So if NO ONE has had any data... how could they come up with the "it's a cycle" hypothesis and have it backed up by anything more than "Well, I remember we used to have some big events. Remember those three big events we went to?"

Well, I don't need a ton of data to support one thing which plays into a cycle existing, not so much in the sport, but as someone else said, individuals. Doing an entire season is expensive and exhausting. It's not crazy and you don't need much to back that up. For someone who commits to a full season and does it, for the next 2-5 years they are probably going to be drained financially, emotionally, family, time away from work, etc.

So, I'll make an outrageous claim and say there is likely an individual cycle for almost everyone. I can then extrapolate that there are probably collective cycles as the cooling off period is probably different for everyone.

Is that fair? It feels fair in my head.

one factor is the distance. The tow can be more than the entry. And that is because the US-o-A is huge.

Case in point. The Mendocino rally is in my back yard. Cool. But i want to go to Idaho. Its similiar to driving from from Spain to Romania.

How many rallies are there in the Great Britian area? As compared to its sq. mileage? Im curious what the rally density is of say NZ, or AUS.

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
Gravity Fed
one factor is the distance. The tow can be more than the entry. And that is because the US-o-A is huge.

Case in point. The Mendocino rally is in my back yard. Cool. But i want to go to Idaho. Its similar to driving from from Spain to Romania.

How many rallies are there in the Great Britian area? As compared to its sq. mileage? I'm curious what the rally density is of say NZ, or AUS.

UK has plenty of rallies and championships of different levels for both tarmac and forest / gravel. UK is approx 900miles from tip to toe.

For scale.


Scotland, the top and best bit like the cream on the milk or icing on the cake makes up approx 300 mile of the UK.

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Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

Quote
Gravity Fed
one factor is the distance. The tow can be more than the entry. And that is because the US-o-A is huge.

Case in point. The Mendocino rally is in my back yard. Cool. But i want to go to Idaho. Its similiar to driving from from Spain to Romania.

How many rallies are there in the Great Britian area? As compared to its sq. mileage? Im curious what the rally density is of say NZ, or AUS.

Better representation:

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Aus is nearly like USA continental except their NEAR entire population is in one corner no more than 100KM from the sea.

NZ there's only maybe 60 people in the whole country, just millions of sheep.

Amazing either place has any rallies.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
si
So, I'll make an outrageous claim and say there is likely an individual cycle for almost everyone. I can then extrapolate that there are probably collective cycles as the cooling off period is probably different for everyone.

Is that fair? It feels fair in my head.

If it were true, you just proved there wouldn't be large cycles.

Individual cycles, if individual, would all have different periods. And each person would start at different times. Thus, added together, they would average to a roughly smooth total amount. In fact, it's the same math that makes "white noise" out of many different frequencies added together.

Additionally, the current "decline period" has seen the participation dropping for around nine years. So, your hypothesis would only make sense if typical participation periods were something like 12 or 18 years, which they are not.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Random thoughts:

Anders, any Stewart charts of participation in your files? That would show trends and cycles as I'm sure you know.

We always talk of this being expensive, but I help out at a shop that RENTS a formula car out for 200,000 dollars for 6 races. And there's really no sponsorship involved, since races get no more exposure than rally events. And the field is usually full at 40+ cars.

Rally still just doesn't have the general public exposure and local stepping stone events that other motorsports do in the US. I explain the basics to someone every chance I get, but even those who have heard of stage rally usually don't really know what it is.

I don't know how to fix it. I've been volunteering for 4 years now, and I think I'm a lifer.

I do think that every rally should try to have a rallycross style stage that is scheduled such that the crew can see it.

Other than that, continue making it more accessible to average Joe's, and be patient with a niche sport in the US. The longer I'm involved, the more I appreciate the approach of events centered around the grassroots competitor, because that's where the sport is at the moment and that is where the future growth will originate.
I'm blabbering, some of this isn't well thought out, take it or leave it..

Perry

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Perry

FE570s course bike
KTM 950 ADV
74 Beetle turbo-efi etc..
72 Beetle stage rally project WRX powered
Attended about 15 rallies, usually a volunteer in a course car.

Quote
Anders Green
Not in this crowd. It's based on "some old timer said it, and I haven't bothered to think about it, so I'll say it too."

Consider this: till I started compiling the results about four years ago of US participation, there existed, to my knowledge, NO comprehensive count of stage rally participation anywhere, by anyone. When I was an SCCA committee member fifteen years ago, discussing how to increase participation, the SCCA didn't have this data.

So if NO ONE has had any data... how could they come up with the "it's a cycle" hypothesis and have it backed up by anything more than "Well, I remember we used to have some big events. Remember those three big events we went to?"

...

ps by "comprehensive", I absolutely mean everyone going racing, and I'm aware of some of the stats of national only on rallyracingnews, and those are not "comprensive" because regional racing is not included and it really needs to be if you want to know how many people are racing.

The irony of this statement is that unless you share your statistics, you become the-oldtimer-who-makes-a-claim-based-on-some-observed-data-that-no-one-else-can-check.

I've gone over the statistics for the southwest pretty regularly (most events are available at rallydata.com) and found all sorts of correlations: a couple-of-year lag related to the economy, how active rallycross programs are, major third-party marketing schemes in effect, the quality of events, the locality of events, etc. Nothing has yet convinced me there's a causation attached, but there are some interesting correlations.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

I've put them up in the past, and graphs too. I'm not going to put it in my sig or anything, it's not the only conversation to be had in the sport. Plus it would bum me out if that's all I talked about.

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Collective cycles? Periods?

Are you a bunch of chicks in a dorm at Bryn Mawr College or what?

ps. googling Martha McClintock will help explain what I'm on about

Quote
Iowa999
Collective cycles? Periods?

Are you a bunch of chicks in a dorm at Bryn Mawr College or what?

ps. googling Martha McClintock will help explain what I'm on about

Well, I am glad I was not the first one to say something.....

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Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.

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zerodegreec
I have seen two reasons for the people leaving within 3 years. Ego, Money, combination of both.

Agree and disagree. Money/time, which I view as one and the same thing is the issue. Ego? Meh, if people are competitive, they'll keep coming back until they win. I honestly can't name a single person who I believe has truly dropped out due to ego... every answer is always time/money/family.

To do 6 events in a year (as a driver) AND have a life outside of rally... is really friggin' hard (and even doing it as inexpensively as possible is still thousands more than an average individual normally spends on their hobbies). You are looking at a minimum, MINIMUM $1200 per event ($600 average entry fee, $100 hotel night, $200 towing fuel, $200 of fuel for the event even if on 91 as you probably recce in your car then, food for two people is $100 minimum, tire wear because buying used tires is actually a ripoff add another $200 per event). That's $9k per year not including maintenance or breaking stuff. It was hard enough when I was co-driving 10+ events a year (figure 4-5 days of actual time devoted to rallying per event besides for the occasional regional where everything works perfectly).

As for participation, I think it is fairly simple (as someone pointed out). NOBODY STILL, TO THIS DAY, KNOWS ABOUT RALLY. Everybody knows about Formula 1 though. Even though at one point rally was more popular than Formula 1. What changed (or didn't)?

I keep getting more and more emails via the RallyWest website in regards to people interested in competing though. I'm on my third year as president. That might mean something, but I don't know what.

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HiTempguy
Agree and disagree. Money/time, which I view as one and the same thing is the issue. Ego? Meh, if people are competitive, they'll keep coming back until they win. I honestly can't name a single person who I believe has truly dropped out due to ego... every answer is always time/money/family.

Wouldn't the ego dictate that they make up some other excuse so as not to bruise their ego? Blame it on the economy/sponsors/large tows etc. anything but the driving...that'll save rally!

Dave

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DaveK
Wouldn't the ego dictate that they make up some other excuse so as not to bruise their ego? Blame it on the economy/sponsors/large tows etc. anything but the driving...that'll save rally!

Dave

Possibly, buuuuut... it's pretty easy to see when a poor sap is spending himself... poor, because of rallying. As we all know, it's an addiction that is hard to just turn off

People accuse me of having a big ego and shit, I'm still around!

i would like to see more rallies in the same areas. Like if Idaho ran twice a year, or more.

Or say the PNW had the rallies they used to have in the area. There would be no need to travel far and still rally frequently.

Here in the North Cal area, I think there needs to be more events if the roads can be found. This would require the people to run them, but people need to keep their attention spans too. Aside from the one weenie event per year, I along with several others, have to drive the cost of an entry in fuel to go somewhere else. Id rather have a few events locally, even if they involve the same, similar, or sections of stages other events use.

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023