Rally America Serious Problems

There are several things that are limiting competitive stage distance.

- Volunteers. They are rarely enough to run more than a couple of stages at a time and they are already 'giving' long days in unknown conditions so we can play in the woods. Give me 30 more volunteers for Big White and I can near double the stage distance with almost zero additional time in the day.

- Roads. Finding enough challenging roads within a reasonable distance, and getting permission to shut them down, is almost always seriously underestimated by people.

- Recce. Agree with it or not today's crop of competitors, particularly at the national level, tend to want recce. The more distance run and the more 'unique' stage mileage, the longer recce is.

'Rich Guys' begging for 70 mile events is not one of the things limiting distance. In fact, I don't hear those complaints. (Admittedly, we do hear that 200km (120 mi) is about the practical limit for a one or one-and-a-half day event. 150-200km is the target for Canadian Nationals.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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BlackWidow
But the one thing that will make it difficult for me to spend money on is the fees associated with the Rally. Entrance fees are extremely high ...

The issue is context.

http://www.nasarallysport.com/main/Why-do-rallies-cost-so-much-to-enter

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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MConte05

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john vanlandingham

Pomegranates to lichees?
Kiwi fruit to French fries?

Huh?

Oh clarified your post for you a little bit.
You're welshcome

You sound SO out of touch with those "corrections" it is hilarious. Good lord.

Serious question, when is the last time you ran an event? Showed up to one? Or volunteered?

It's supposed to be hilarious.
And---what is not true? You're saying that events don't cancel stages?
And that the NORM is 120+ SS miles?


And sorry but your utter bullshit of "when was the last time you ran an event" bullshit is just flat stupid. Give you a big hint about how life works: each person does what they can and if they're smart to use the best strengths where they can do the greatest good. Some people LIKE being organsiser, officials, the mechanism of being a part of a committee or being a boss......some people do other---equally necassary--- things....
I spend a LOT of time helping individuals GET TO events with good , prepared, solid cars because at THIS POINT in life that is what I can do best.
You really don't care when I last was at an event---which was Mt Hood co-driving with my friend Al Kun a couple of years ago----you're just trying to find something to try to criticise----be honest.
But since then with the schedule we have with yound kids and wife's work when I have ANY time available I am in the machine shop making parts---a lot of semi-custom parts for hundreds of guys: suspesnion, steel flywheels, brake kits, building engines, and teaching and encouraging people (explaining to people how if they are determined to build their car how they can get a tight fitting cage, how to plan the process, a LOT of time on setting priorities, a LOT of time on driving techniques--always taking a lot of time to tailor the advice to their experience, to what they already know from whatever previous hobbies they have done....
You have no idea how much time. And you're all new to this world so full of self assurance and energy, good, but in just THIS sport i have been doing the same expenditure of time with people since 1984---
So big fucking deal I haven't organsied an event or been to one just to block a road or watch in a couple of years.....I have a a house and a family now for the first time in my life and they're more important to me than going out to events, so if you don't like that, tough shit, bub.

Still, what I wrote is true, there has been a push---behind the scenes for years to shorten the miles for Nationals from the richest participants and those catering to them. There have been serious reductions in SS miles for various stupid reasons. Sometimes 20-30% with just a couple of SSs thrown. It does take 50-60 hours driving one way to go coast to coast..
That's a simple fact---not a matter of being in touch.

It IS a huge expenditure of time/money/effort in USA and Canada to go to events..

Why do you suppose I advise people to concentrate on supporting their local events with simpler but fun cars?
Because that is how the sport will eventually grow, from the bottom, from strong local foundations with good sustainable local relationships...
Not talking a bunch of idealised bullshit.

But bullshit, you don't care, you have a big chip on your shoulder and you want to attack. Have at it.

See you in 30 years when you've wound down your personal driving and I'll ask you what you've done lately for other people..

(Realistically I could ask, but it is pointless because you're not interested in dialog----how many motors, cages, brakes, suspension set ups, welding, plumbing brakes, plumbing coolers, etc etc have YOU done for other rallyists in the last 30 years? Hundreds? scores? How many? I don't know but you better have done at least a couple of hundred of those things for others before you begin attacking somebodys contribution to keep the sport alive)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Morison

'Rich Guys' begging for 70 mile events is not one of the things limiting distance. In fact, I don't hear those complaints. (Admittedly, we do hear that 200km (120 mi) is about the practical limit for a one or one-and-a-half day event. 150-200km is the target for Canadian Nationals.

You don't but you in Calgary are not the center of the North American rally universe and just because you haven't does not mean there hasn't been for more than 20 years agitation exactly as described

Quote

"Well they top spots are usually decided by 70 miles---so what's the point in going longer"

A direct quote to me, not hearsay...

Same as the oft repeated "well new guys in less prepared cars don't really want longer events". That bullshit "reasoning" will never die---despite the fact that every single noob I have encountered instinctively knows that what they need and want more than anything is miles and miles of SS seat time. The more, the better.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Anders Green
The issue is context.

http://www.nasarallysport.com/main/Why-do-rallies-cost-so-much-to-enter

Why is the sky blue?

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john vanlandingham
You don't but you in Calgary are not the center of the North American rally universe and just because you haven't does not mean there hasn't been for more than 20 years agitation exactly as described

But I don't spend all of my time in Calgary and I certainly talk to a fairly broad spectrum of people across the continent. I can tell you that when events in Canada talk about going over 200 Km, everyone loves it. (even the guys spending $75/km, or more, to run their car)

At the same time we are seeing calls from 'the community' as a whole to make events cheaper and shorter. Many of the Quebec and Ontario regional events are 'one day' events that are 70-100km long and the belief - in the regions and from the organisers - is that is what the competitors want.

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john vanlandingham

Quote

"Well they top spots are usually decided by 70 miles---so what's the point in going longer"

A direct quote to me, not hearsay...

Yah, Buffum said pretty much the same to me in the last two years. Although in that conversation he was at 150-175km (95-110miles.) Thing is, they're right. The positions - most of the way through the field - are decided and settled by that time, with some exceptions.

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john vanlandingham
Same as the oft repeated "well new guys in less prepared cars don't really want longer events". That bullshit "reasoning" will never die---despite the fact that every single noob I have encountered instinctively knows that what they need and want more than anything is miles and miles of SS seat time. The more, the better.

But the more in what form?
- Organized and sanctioned test days where teams can try things and learn in a safe, non-competitive forum on real stage roads?
- More, shorter, events so the guy that stuffs it on the first corner isn't throwing away all that mileage at once?

One thing that happens in Canada is we get feedback from every competitor as a standard part of every event. (You don't get your logbook back without filling out a form.) The vast majority of forms are filled out quickly and without a lot of detail but most of the time we do get solid feedback from several crews.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
MConte05

Quote
john vanlandingham

Pomegranates to lichees?
Kiwi fruit to French fries?

Huh?

Oh clarified your post for you a little bit.
You're welshcome

You sound SO out of touch with those "corrections" it is hilarious. Good lord.

Serious question, when is the last time you ran an event? Showed up to one? Or volunteered?

It's supposed to be hilarious.
And---what is not true? You're saying that events don't cancel stages?
And that the NORM is 120+ SS miles?

blahblahcouldhaveansweredinonesentencewalloftext

It IS a huge expenditure of time/money/effort in USA and Canada to go to events..

Why do you suppose I advise people to concentrate on supporting their local events with simpler but fun cars?
Because that is how the sport will eventually grow, from the bottom, from strong local foundations with good sustainable local relationships...
Not talking a bunch of idealised bullshit.

But bullshit, you don't care, you have a big chip on your shoulder and you want to attack. Have at it.

See you in 30 years when you've wound down your personal driving and I'll ask you what you've done lately for other people..

(Realistically I could ask, but it is pointless because you're not interested in dialog----how many motors, cages, brakes, suspension set ups, welding, plumbing brakes, plumbing coolers, etc etc have YOU done for other rallyists in the last 30 years? Hundreds? scores? How many? I don't know but you better have done at least a couple of hundred of those things for others before you begin attacking somebodys contribution to keep the sport alive)

Yes, the norm is about 120 miles, and yes some stages do get cancelled. 100 Acre Wood last year was 129 stage miles, stage 5 got thrown because of locals who were not cooperating, that was a 4.5 mile long stage. So the total stage mileage was 124.5.

And yes, it is a big expenditure, but it isn't terrible if you are smart. You COULD be like that guy coming on here looking for money to go from WA to SnoDrift, but if you are smart you realize what your financial limitations are, and factor from there. That's why I only did two events last year. Was busy also paying for a wedding and a great honeymoon. This year I will be trying to get at least 3 events in. All local, regional level events in a simple car.

The reason I asked for your "when's the last time you were at an event" question was not because of a big chip on my shoulder, but because you are making sweeping generalizations that aren't true, and if you were actually at the events, you'd understand that. But I am sure this will be drowned out in another wall of text that accomplishes nothing.

Yes, it is good to push people to stay focused on smaller local events with simple cheap cars. I can 100% agree with you there, and I am glad you do. No one is putting a gun to these peoples heads saying you HAVE to drive across the country to do this event, it's a choice they are making, and if they can't back it up financially, that's a stupid decision on their part. No different than buying a house or a car that you can't afford, and I am sure it is something that gets played out in every single type of motorsports "national" championship no matter what.

Quote
MConte05

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
MConte05

Quote
john vanlandingham

Pomegranates to lichees?
Kiwi fruit to French fries?

Huh?

Oh clarified your post for you a little bit.
You're welshcome

You sound SO out of touch with those "corrections" it is hilarious. Good lord.

Serious question, when is the last time you ran an event? Showed up to one? Or volunteered?

It's supposed to be hilarious.
And---what is not true? You're saying that events don't cancel stages?
And that the NORM is 120+ SS miles?

blahblahcouldhaveansweredinonesentencewalloftext

It IS a huge expenditure of time/money/effort in USA and Canada to go to events..

Why do you suppose I advise people to concentrate on supporting their local events with simpler but fun cars?
Because that is how the sport will eventually grow, from the bottom, from strong local foundations with good sustainable local relationships...
Not talking a bunch of idealised bullshit.

But bullshit, you don't care, you have a big chip on your shoulder and you want to attack. Have at it.

See you in 30 years when you've wound down your personal driving and I'll ask you what you've done lately for other people..

(Realistically I could ask, but it is pointless because you're not interested in dialog----how many motors, cages, brakes, suspension set ups, welding, plumbing brakes, plumbing coolers, etc etc have YOU done for other rallyists in the last 30 years? Hundreds? scores? How many? I don't know but you better have done at least a couple of hundred of those things for others before you begin attacking somebodys contribution to keep the sport alive)

Yes, the norm is about 120 miles, and yes some stages do get cancelled. 100 Acre Wood last year was 129 stage miles, stage 5 got thrown because of locals who were not cooperating, that was a 4.5 mile long stage. So the total stage mileage was 124.5.

And yes, it is a big expenditure, but it isn't terrible if you are smart. You COULD be like that guy coming on here looking for money to go from WA to SnoDrift, but if you are smart you realize what your financial limitations are, and factor from there. That's why I only did two events last year. Was busy also paying for a wedding and a great honeymoon. This year I will be trying to get at least 3 events in. All local, regional level events in a simple car.

The reason I asked for your "when's the last time you were at an event" question was not because of a big chip on my shoulder, but because you are making sweeping generalizations that aren't true, and if you were actually at the events, you'd understand that. But I am sure this will be drowned out in another wall of text that accomplishes nothing.

Yes, it is good to push people to stay focused on smaller local events with simple cheap cars. I can 100% agree with you there, and I am glad you do. No one is putting a gun to these peoples heads saying you HAVE to drive across the country to do this event, it's a choice they are making, and if they can't back it up financially, that's a stupid decision on their part. No different than buying a house or a car that you can't afford, and I am sure it is something that gets played out in every single type of motorsports "national" championship no matter what.

You write even more words and evidently because its YOU it's not "a wall of text"
Yeah right.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Morison
At the same time we are seeing calls from 'the community' as a whole to make events cheaper and shorter. Many of the Quebec and Ontario regional events are 'one day' events that are 70-100km long and the belief - in the regions and from the organisers - is that is what the competitors want.

But the more in what form?
- Organized and sanctioned test days where teams can try things and learn in a safe, non-competitive forum on real stage roads?
- More, shorter, events so the guy that stuffs it on the first corner isn't throwing away all that mileage at once?

Do you have any stats about the Quebec championship? I know there are a ton of cars and events that I haven't heard of and people that seem quite content to hang out there and rally just there.

In my opinion, 20-60 stage miles for a local rally is probably max or organizing and volunteer staffing purposes. A National caliber event should have goal of winning time being around 2 hours and not so focused on mileage.

---

Grant Hughes

Rally, first and foremost, should be all about endurance. Endurance of the machine, endurance of the driving team, endurance of the service crew. Preparation and execution to meet that challenge. We're out there to have fun. We can have fun and be tired at the same time. The thrill of completing a really long rally as an amateur team is amazing. Plus you get lots of seat time. Longer rallies somewhat reduces the advantage of the deep pocket teams. You've still gotta finish.

So, any organizers out there considering these suggestions to pussy down their events - please don't. Go the other way if you can - make them harder.

---

Simon Wright
Owner/Driver USUK Racing - Home of the USUK Racing LED Light Bars!

North America Rally Map

Quote
Morison
Yah, Buffum said pretty much the same to me in the last two years. Although in that conversation he was at 150-175km (95-110miles.) Thing is, they're right. The positions - most of the way through the field - are decided and settled by that time, with some exceptions.

Yeah, Buffum has said the same thing to me too, about 100 miles.

There's something about it that doesn't ring true though. The NATURE of the race is defined by the distance. A quarter mile race, you can pretty much tell who's going to win in 0.249 miles. A 24 hour race, you can pretty much tell who's going to win in 23 hours and 45 minutes. A 500 lap race, you can pretty much tell who's going to win in 495 laps. A fourteen day 6,000 miles rally raid, you can pretty much tell who's going to win after thirteen and a half days.

So when Buffum says "you can pretty much tell who's going to win a rally after 100 miles, so why go further", it's not that he has discovered some underlying principle behind rally, it's actually the opposite: he is not recognizing that what he's saying is only true if all the rallies are 110 to 120 miles long, which is the length of the rallies he's been dealing with for the last 20 years! I mean, duh, when the race is almost over, you're pretty sure who's going to win. No kidding.

Make all the rallies 160 miles long, and the old "you know by 100 miles" turns out to be wrong. It changes to 150 miles.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Quote
simoniac
Rally, first and foremost, should be all about endurance. Endurance of the machine, endurance of the driving team, endurance of the service crew. Preparation and execution to meet that challenge. We're out there to have fun. We can have fun and be tired at the same time. The thrill of completing a really long rally as an amateur team is amazing. Plus you get lots of seat time. Longer rallies somewhat reduces the advantage of the deep pocket teams. You've still gotta finish.

So, any organizers out there considering these suggestions to pussy down their events - please don't. Go the other way if you can - make them harder.

Gawddam Pommie bastid Furriner where do you get such CRAZY ideeers?!

What would happen if everybody thought like that?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
simoniac
Rally, first and foremost, should be all about endurance. Endurance of the machine, endurance of the driving team, endurance of the service crew. Preparation and execution to meet that challenge. We're out there to have fun. We can have fun and be tired at the same time. The thrill of completing a really long rally as an amateur team is amazing. Plus you get lots of seat time. Longer rallies somewhat reduces the advantage of the deep pocket teams. You've still gotta finish.

So, any organizers out there considering these suggestions to pussy down their events - please don't. Go the other way if you can - make them harder.

Yep,

This is why I like Pines...

Regional events close by.

Pines (regional) SS kms 140 Enrty $600

Lanark SS kms 65 Entry $500
Bear SS kms 110 Entry $560

Not in any way knocking Lanark, as I hope we can run it this year. But dollar for dollar, Pines is way better if I don't drive off the road.

If a regional event was 50 km of stage and $250 I'd be all over it! But they aren't.

I personally think longer events are what makes rally, well rally. Pines and Defi are still my personal favorite rallies I've run, and it was the gruel that made it so.

As a newb, You can go out in a bone stock car and run at the limits of the car (try not to break it), and have more fun then you need. If you do that longer, is it not better?

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NoCoast

Do you have any stats about the Quebec championship? I know there are a ton of cars and events that I haven't heard of and people that seem quite content to hang out there and rally just there.

In my opinion, 20-60 stage miles for a local rally is probably max or organizing and volunteer staffing purposes. A National caliber event should have goal of winning time being around 2 hours and not so focused on mileage.

Sanair SS 120km ashphalt
Saguenay, ss 118 km
Lac-aux-Sables SS 138km
Charlevoix SS 132km (2 k of ashphalt)

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Anders Green

Quote
Morison
Yah, Buffum said pretty much the same to me in the last two years. Although in that conversation he was at 150-175km (95-110miles.) Thing is, they're right. The positions - most of the way through the field - are decided and settled by that time, with some exceptions.

Yeah, Buffum has said the same thing to me too, about 100 miles.

There's something about it that doesn't ring true though. The NATURE of the race is defined by the distance. A quarter mile race, you can pretty much tell who's going to win in 0.249 miles. A 24 hour race, you can pretty much tell who's going to win in 23 hours and 45 minutes. A 500 lap race, you can pretty much tell who's going to win in 495 laps. A fourteen day 6,000 miles rally raid, you can pretty much tell who's going to win after thirteen and a half days.

So when Buffum says "you can pretty much tell who's going to win a rally after 100 miles, so why go further", it's not that he has discovered some underlying principle behind rally, it's actually the opposite: he is not recognizing that what he's saying is only true if all the rallies are 110 to 120 miles long, which is the length of the rallies he's been dealing with for the last 20 years! I mean, duh, when the race is almost over, you're pretty sure who's going to win. No kidding.

Make all the rallies 160 miles long, and the old "you know by 100 miles" turns out to be wrong. It changes to 150 miles.

Anders

The OTHER thing which I dunno seems so fawkin obvious that I cannot understand why all the guys who are soooooooooooooooooo in touch with what rally is all aboud that they have to write contemptuous shit don't see it is this (fawk me it's like explaining a joke, ruins it if people don't get it)

The "1st and 2nd and whatever is pretty much decided by XX miles...."


OOOOOOOooooooooooOOOOOH dayum, I didn't know that they were the only 2-3 participants in the whole fucking rally that counted for anything! I mean what is my major malfunction???!!!
1-2-3 is all decided! Who cares about the rest?

That is the meta-message. You guys even bought it and began discussing that message.

In my exteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemely limited experience I've done an awful lot of passing on last lap/stage, but that was before the Intra-webs so it doesn't mean anything now.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.