Rally America Serious Problems

Alex - ding ding ding. You win.
Single stage single day events, 3-6 local events per "locality", one regional event.

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Grant Hughes

Alex I also agree. Mi seems to have quite a few cars running around. There is 3 events in MI. How many cars would there be if there were 6 events?

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Just for giggles I added up the tow millage to do the RA nationals; just under 30,000 miles from here!


The only thing to do would be rent a base of opperations in the middle of the country, which is what my buddy who runs endurance racing does. But at that point, get your balls together and rent a car in F-cup car in the old country.

But to get to the origianl point of this thread, trying to run the RA national series as a pro team just doesn't make sense. There is absolutely no press visability. Why would any sponsor put money into something thats only seen by squirls and sasquatches? Actually there is the one page at the back of Grass Roots Motorsport. I DID get a photo there once, and when I tried pointing it out while pursuing some sponsorship I got laughted at...

On the other hand, following the pro teams aren't that big a deal to me, I want to compete at the privateer and have no glassy eyed dreams about making the big time, so I have to give big thanks to the local groups that actually make events happen. Those who dug in and kept Nameless/Olympus alive get huge respect.

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alkun
Why would any sponsor put money into something thats only seen by squirls and sasquatches?

Actually, very interesting point. Could all the in-car footage be used to prove or disprove the existence of Sasquatch? I mean we run in some pretty remote forests and cover a lot of miles a lot of times with a lot of cameras!

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

You could make a sasquach throw rug sell it to somebody with a big fire place and save rally!

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Quote
Reamer
You could make a sasquach throw rug sell it to somebody with a big fire place and save rally!

Yeah, but how you ever gonna get the smell outta the carpet?

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Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.

Quote
alkun
But to get to the origianl point of this thread, trying to run the RA national series as a pro team just doesn't make sense. There is absolutely no press visability.

I've said this to just about anyone who asks.
Don't sell sponsors something you don't fully control the delivery of.
You can't promise you'll get into magazines or newspapers unless you do something like host a skid control school and GET a bunch of media out to it.

Quote
alkun
On the other hand, following the pro teams aren't that big a deal to me, I want to compete at the privateer and have no glassy eyed dreams about making the big time, so I have to give big thanks to the local groups that actually make events happen. Those who dug in and kept Nameless/Olympus alive get huge respect.

Think about this.
You have a sponsor who gives you enough money to cover the costs to run a sanctioned/insured test day, including catered food for a VIP tent for their use and you have to give rides to 20 invited guests(AKA seat time.)
With the agreement of the sponsor you open up the test day and sell spots to other teams, making the 'event' a bigger deal. Every entry you sell becomes money you can use in your rally program to either enter more events or provide swag to the events you do attend.
(If I ever put together a deal for a high level team, it would include buying give away items for volunteers, buying sponsorships from events or maybe a big THANK YOU ad in event programs)

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Real computer aka vacation is over sadly.

Rally in it's current configuration suffers from severe sample bias. There is a very small number of people that are able to compete and the focus has been on how to attract and retain that very small subset.

Importantly, you have to have a clear goal for any series and that goal needs to meet the reality of your sample. Not a very small subset, but the whole that you have defined and includes every competitor.

Now, let's go back to the rich guy sampling bias that exists in the National Championship. For simplicity, we'll call this theoretical wealtyh rallyist Joe. The problem that occurs is that Joe has money from one of two places most often. A trust fund or from business success. In the first case, rally will deplete the trust fund at a rate that is nearly unmatched. That summer spent backpacking in Europe wasn't even a blip on the radar compared to what rallying costs. So maybe Joe decides he has to figure out some way to make it profitable. That probably means opening his own shop and subsidizing other rallyists to get his name out or "stepping up his game" and trying to spend his way to the highest level of competitiveness and thus major sponsorship. The latter we know will fail and eventually Joe will realize he is spending too much and he will move on to some hobby that is more affordable. If he tries opening his own shop he will either fail quickly due to lack of market for a rally shop or he will do some serious business strategizing that likely involves moving away from rally cars and more toward a traditional car or race shop. He is now a successful business owner so falls into the same group as...

The successful business owner. There is a famous saying, "A hundred dollars may not sound like much to you normal folk, but to us millionaires, that is alot of money." Most businesses are successful due to smart business. Extravagant spending is not smart business. Ken Block has built his racing into a successful business employing many people that many of us call friends. He can't just go rally because that is what he wants to do. He now has other people that depend on him to generate revenue so they can continue to have a job. It's the smart business move.
So the wealthy businessman rallyist will eventually leave the sport as well.

So, what is the solution? We have to figure out a way to make rally attainable for a few groups of people and focus soley on them equally.
1. Teenagers
2. Mid and mid-upper class
3. Business owners

My vision... Three levels of championship. Local, Regional, and National. Local is 4-8 small single day events per year. Regional is one larger event per local group. National is a rotating group of Regional events. Seeding system reinstated that requires novices to compete and do well in local championships and light classes prior to moving to higher level classes. Open Light and 2WD are local championship classes with a minimum of 12 pounds per horse.

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Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
Real computer aka vacation is over sadly.

Rally in it's current configuration suffers from severe sample bias. There is a very small number of people that are able to compete and the focus has been on how to attract and retain that very small subset.

Importantly, you have to have a clear goal for any series and that goal needs to meet the reality of your sample. Not a very small subset, but the whole that you have defined and includes every competitor.

Now, let's go back to the rich guy sampling bias that exists in the National Championship. For simplicity, we'll call this theoretical wealtyh rallyist Joe. The problem that occurs is that Joe has money from one of two places most often. A trust fund or from business success. In the first case, rally will deplete the trust fund at a rate that is nearly unmatched. That summer spent backpacking in Europe wasn't even a blip on the radar compared to what rallying costs. So maybe Joe decides he has to figure out some way to make it profitable. That probably means opening his own shop and subsidizing other rallyists to get his name out or "stepping up his game" and trying to spend his way to the highest level of competitiveness and thus major sponsorship. The latter we know will fail and eventually Joe will realize he is spending too much and he will move on to some hobby that is more affordable. If he tries opening his own shop he will either fail quickly due to lack of market for a rally shop or he will do some serious business strategizing that likely involves moving away from rally cars and more toward a traditional car or race shop. He is now a successful business owner so falls into the same group as...

The successful business owner. There is a famous saying, "A hundred dollars may not sound like much to you normal folk, but to us millionaires, that is alot of money." Most businesses are successful due to smart business. Extravagant spending is not smart business. Ken Block has built his racing into a successful business employing many people that many of us call friends. He can't just go rally because that is what he wants to do. He now has other people that depend on him to generate revenue so they can continue to have a job. It's the smart business move.
So the wealthy businessman rallyist will eventually leave the sport as well.

So, what is the solution? We have to figure out a way to make rally attainable for a few groups of people and focus soley on them equally.
1. Teenagers
2. Mid and mid-upper class income
3. Business owners

My vision... Three levels of championship. Local, Regional, and National. Local is 4-8 small single day events per year. Regional is one larger event per local group. National is a rotating group of Regional events. Seeding system reinstated that requires novices to compete and do well in local championships and light classes prior to moving to higher level classes. Open Light and 2WD are local championship classes with a minimum of 12 pounds per horse.

Income has nothing to do with class..

Good ideas other than the sloppy class bias.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
NoCoast
My vision... Three levels of championship. Local, Regional, and National. Local is 4-8 small single day events per year. Regional is one larger event per local group. National is a rotating group of Regional events. Seeding system reinstated that requires novices to compete and do well in local championships and light classes prior to moving to higher level classes. Open Light and 2WD are local championship classes with a minimum of 12 pounds per horse.

12:1!?!?! That would allow someone to shoot for a 1740 lbs Open Lite 2.2L GC Impreza with stock motor?!? Think of all the carbon parts you can sell!

With my 'stock' replacement motor I'd be looking at almost 4000 lbs for the Compact. I thought power didn't matter in the 2wd classes?

Dave

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DaveK
I thought power didn't matter in the 2wd classes?

Dave

I am well above the 12:1 lbs-hp ratio and still agree with Dave.... power for 2wd should be of no concern for classing. More powahs just means moar tirez shedded.

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____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

Yeah I was busy, what the fuck is with Grant anayway?

Grant since you've become a shop owner wanna be and don't even pretend t ever want to do an event again your thinking has become ---in the words of a very young Harrison Ford as the lieutenant briefing Willard about Kurtz, unsound.

less rules is always better.

2 fucking classes.
No differences in car classes or prep for day one beginner or poser wanna be Pretented to the Throne.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
DaveK

With my 'stock' replacement motor I'd be looking at almost 4000 lbs for the Compact. I thought power didn't matter in the 2wd classes?

Dave

Your "stock" motor that costs as much as building an entire Golf?
Your Compact and my Merkur are good examples of what I want to avoid people building and building and building and and and...

Quote
JVL
Grant since you've become a shop owner wanna be and don't even pretend t ever want to do an event again your thinking has become unsound.

Shop owner wanna be? I've only caged ten race cars in the last 18 months and am starting a small amount of local only retail. I want to do lots of events and I want to race against many other people. Was just last night looking at entry lists for 100AW and SnoDrift, former I will be at doing service for a new rallyist friend, and one person said, "hey, you should finish the Merkur and go, you are guaranteed a class win." There are zero Group 5 cars entered at either event. Though guessing the Scion should just be 2WD and National, not Group 2.

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Grant Hughes

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NoCoast
Your "stock" motor that costs as much as building an entire Golf?
Your Compact and my Merkur are good examples of what I want to avoid people building and building and building and and and...

Who would want to run a golf though? People like to tinker and upgrade when things break. G2 and G5 both allow for that freely. FWIW, my stock S50 and stock M52 engines have broken (oil pump failures, possible mis-shift over rev induced failure on the valves?), so its not like you can blame my issues on the fact that I built some crazy engine that was tuned an inch from catastrophe.

IMO, creating a rule set that bans some of that out and makes your competitor pool smaller isn't a great idea especially after so many years of people talking about how 2wd power doesn't really matter that much. Going to ban someone from taking a merkur and upgrading the wiring harnesses too? What about folks who've upgraded internals on an old beat up looking motor? Portable dyno and hauling scales to every event...f that noise!

After my experience at Ojibwe getting waxed something good and not even making use of the power a stock 328 makes I agree that there's no reason the Compact "needs" the S54, but god damnit...'Merikuh!

Dave

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NoCoast

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DaveK

With my 'stock' replacement motor I'd be looking at almost 4000 lbs for the Compact. I thought power didn't matter in the 2wd classes?

Dave

Your "stock" motor that costs as much as building an entire Golf?
Your Compact and my Merkur are good examples of what I want to avoid people building and building and building and and and...

Quote
JVL
Grant since you've become a shop owner wanna be and don't even pretend t ever want to do an event again your thinking has become unsound.

Shop owner wanna be? I've only caged ten race cars in the last 18 months and am starting a small amount of local only retail. I want to do lots of events and I want to race against many other people. Was just last night looking at entry lists for 100AW and SnoDrift, former I will be at doing service for a new rallyist friend, and one person said, "hey, you should finish the Merkur and go, you are guaranteed a class win." There are zero Group 5 cars entered at either event. Though guessing the Scion should just be 2WD and National, not Group 2.

Grant I've been poking at you to re-assemble the Merkur for years.
But NoooooooooOOOOO you have other things to do

... Like vacations to Maui..


Put the car back together, quit being a prima donna /whiney boy "oh i can't find a loom" Don't think you have to build some killer package----like you tried to or spent money preparing to do.. Sean Medcroft/new and Improved Dave Clark thing is basically STOCK except for a T5 and a Toyota 4.3 diff..
Does OK.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.