Olympus 2014

Yup. There is a point on slick surfaces where driving 'quickly' is more hazardous than driving fast. There is a cross over point where you have to be aggressive (as John points out) to get the car slowed, set and powered thru a corner. I'd venture to go fast and look smooth takes a bit of violence.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2014 10:48AM by Morison.

Quote
heymagic
Yup. There is a point on slick surfaces where driving 'quickly' is more hazardous than driving fast. There is a cross over point where you have to be aggressive (as John points out) to get the car slowed, set and powered thru a corner. I'd venture to go fast and look smooth takes a bit of violence.

There's an old rule in motorcycles that says "power on for balance, off for grip".
Look at the elements in that: power.
Sounds kinda simplistic but power pushes/pulls the car ------> this way. cornering makes a push/force to send the car this way ^ or that V way..
If the power is not enough to drive the car this way-----> then its gonna go V way or ^ way---and there's ditches and berms and then TREES this ^ way and that way V so we want to keep on keeping on this way ------->.
That takes power ON...

Now a pokey little ZZZzzzzzeeetec makes almost no power and less torque so the only way to make power is the a) scream the motor and b) gear it down to multiply the feeble torque...

I've stressed till I'm blue in the face: do one thing well... If you're gonna shot SHOOT!

So if its straight zing the everloving fuck outta the motor. Full throttle, lots of revs..HARD.
Not duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh (crunch) duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh but more WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! (crunch) WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

If you're going to brake, BRAKE-----mainly to slow down but also to shift weight forward ontop the front wheels. BRAKE HARD---just short of locking the fronts---screw the rears if the lock so what

WHILE the weight is forward---and the tires are pressed hard into the surface, now they have the most grip they'll ever have, NOW initiate with some vigor.. That shifts the forward weight to the OUTSIDE front wheel...then it'll have the best chance of biting it'll ever have

To brake well (again from motorcycles this is obvious) its BEST to brake in a straight line.....braking hard in a straight line shift the most weight forward--and the most weight OFF the rear---so its then easy to twitch the steering that a way to get the rear WANTING TO go that way---and that adds a dynamic effect to keep weight on outside front... and as long as weight is on outside front, it'll bite, you go around the corner..

So any give staright into a turn can be done like a waltz One-two-three: Gas-brake-turn, gas (next straight) brake -turn

It makes for a more angular path, squaring turns, extending straights....but its safer..

Takes a lot more practice than you will get in a VERY EXPENSIVE few hour session..

And Chris, you don't have the dough...so don't think of delaying or fixate on paid instruction.
Practice.

And get the LSD and gear set from the place that does the half sets...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
..........
Oh in talking with Kulikowski in Ontario and a new Fuckus kid around Fargo ND we cam up with a poor man's rear arm strengthening idea that is super easy and super cheap. again I can show you easier..Easier than the fancy link thing I cam up with but it'll work as well for relaibility at a mere fraction of the cost..
Part of the principle "Don' fab what you don't have to"......

John...interested in what you came up with here...but don't want to jack this thread......

Perhaps a brief discussion/continuation at one of the below established(albeit slightly ancient) threads?

http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,40301

or even better:

http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,80752,page=1


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Back to Chris...practice is good, yes. How does he know what to practice? Where does he practice? Who does he practice with? Too many variables and risk.

He doesn't own land to practice on so he has to use someone elses. Trespass basically, no insurance if he hits someone on the road or injures a passenger. His insurance may look at the circumstances and deny the claim..or not. Risk. Car gets damaged or rolled, who retrieves it? Risk again. Someone gets hurt, more risk. Say some landowner or brush picker or dirt biker comes out of the brush.

Yes DirtFish is costly but so is another DNF and the potential injury. He needs someone competent to show him how to go fast safely and judge the car setup. Practice on open roads is just too risky these days, and practice to learn fast is different risk than practice to test the car for a rally.

He's not crashing because he is going too fast...he's crashing because he doesn't know how to go fast yet.

There is a time for cheap and a time for smart, let's not confuse them.

I remember once looking back at Cody Crane's results on rallyracingnews.com and remarking on how poorly he did in his first few years. I finished my first rally dfl and smiling ear to ear.
Do rallies, take all advice as constructive criticisms but don't put too much weight on any single piece. Make more friends in rally, get the fast ones out on test days and take turns. Pastrana would ride along with Mirra on practice stages to help with coaching him. The fastest guys in USA are often ones that have spent the most time at rally schools. I bet you could fly Chris D out for a few days of one on one if you can find a test day or closed facility to practice on.

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Grant Hughes

Quote
ChrisKobi
So here is some video. This is Black Creek. The more I watch this the more i am convenced I will do so school before next rally. I need to make sure I do not form bad habits. This is my third rally. feel free to critique if you wish.

My number one observation is that you're reacting to the car - you're not ahead of it, anticipating what it's going to do. Your setup for that first missed left, then later on a couple of times when you should've shifted and didn't, and some clues from where you put your hands and when all make me think that. Maybe you're uncomfortable with the car, maybe you're not looking far enough ahead, maybe it's something else, I dunno. A good school will help.

There're some other things I see, like being tentative with the gas and brakes in spots, but I think those are secondary. And your gear ratios are atrocious, but I guess you knew that.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Very well put Gene. I agree completely. Michel is making an aviation reference about being ahead of the car. You should be driving the car, not the car driving you. Easier said than done but a good point.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

my 2 cent:

looks like you are having to go hand over hand steering when things get exciting, a steering quickener may help a lot


call up dirt fish about a one day in your own car, it will be well worth it, silly not to as you are relatively close.

(fun fact: my first ever ride in a rally car was in Nate Tennis' Saab at the Shelton ORV park about 15 years ago, it opened my eyes and set the hook)

The skills to focus on (no pun intended) are;

should either be hard on the power or the brakes. a coasting car is a bad car

learn to brake REAL HARD, once you get confidence in braking hard and late before entering a corner, then its much more reasonable to go fast in the fast parts.

my favorite quote about going fast, Joey Dunlop when asked how on earth he hustled motercycles around the Isle of Mann so fast: " meh, you just go slow in the slow parts and fast in the fast parts"

And the biggie; getting used to drifting in corners. This gets into strong steering input, and being ready to get back into the gas to steer/countersteer. This also requires keeping the engine up in revs/in lower gear so you have power to pull. This is best practiced in a big gravel lot, or perhaps your local golf course...

Quote
Rallymech
Michel is making an aviation reference about being ahead of the car.

It's more of an anything that moves reference.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
heymagic
Back to Chris...practice is good, yes. How does he know what to practice? Where does he practice?

That's the take-home from any talk about how to get better.
Forsaking paid training so you can spend significantly more time practicing what could be the wrong things just doesn't make sense.
Look at Dirtfish, since it is so close, and understand you won't start winning immediately, that you'll still need to do events and get out and practice as much as you can and you'll be able to judge what you should do and what you can afford.
Flying ChrisD out for one-on-one tuition would be, I think, a waste of time at this stage... and would likely end up being more than a full day at DF.

Quote
heymagic
There is a time for cheap and a time for smart, let's not confuse them.

I'd suggest that you would never learn as much, as quickly, on your own as you would with a school. Get the fundamentals underneath you with a school and then practice as much as you can as safely as you can.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Such a shame that you all equate instruction with schools..
What school did Gene go to? Or Dave Clark the old one? He fucked around doing a lot of the wrong things for a season.. Then one ride with an experienced driver.....and he did a flinch like he'd been slapped.
Or Alperti Kunkanen......very simple clear commands and he "got it" in 2 corners---and he did the blink duh big eyes, same as Dave Clark almost 20 years before...

Sorry boys but all schooling does not occur in school...

But whatever the key to EVERYTHING now in America is to buy it...

Working out real swell both in the real word and in rally...iddnit?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I should've said "a good instructor". Doesn't have to be a school. Someone with some experience who is also good at teaching it. And a spot where you can go hooning around safely to try things and get through the inevitable screwups without damaging your car.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Wow, thanks guys! Lots of great information to let sink in. Thank you all!

I think Gene hit it on the head with how do I go out and practice and practice what? The concensus says that I need some good schooling and I completely agree. While I'm doing this for fun I've learned that the faster I go the more fun it seems to be and I'm not fast. So when I do get fast I can only imagine how much more fun it's going to be. Can't forget the sideways action too!

I will give DF a call and get a class going. A good foundation is the best thing as I am still very new.

As for car set up I really don't know a lot about it but am slowly learning. Right now the car has JVL suspension his springs up front and the rear springs are not JVs but a stiffer than stock spring. I don't know how many lbs they are. I need to pull them and check. I used the stock springs before and the car just wouldn't turn. Now these springs the car tends to whip around a bit too easily. Could be me lifting or tapping brakes at the wrong time too.
Also I converted the rear drums to discs and I think maybe the brake bias maybe stronger in the rear. Just a guess though as it seems to feel like that.
One thing I'm thinking is maybe having someone else drive the car and see how it feels and I can get a better idea of what I should change.

Oh I just remembered question about tire pressure. 24lbs

As for the recce tape, yes recced in that car. I'll take that off next time or switch out wheel.


I will look and see if I have footage of Couger. The camera didn't work for the first couple stages. Fixed it at service. So I have everything after that.

So school it is! I think it will be of great value. It seems after this last rally I am more excited to get some lessons and more experience so that I can get back out there with more knowledge and a lot more confidence.

Quote
ChrisKobi
Wow, thanks guys! Lots of great information to let sink in. Thank you all!

I think Gene hit it on the head with how do I go out and practice and practice what? The concensus says that I need some good schooling and I completely agree. While I'm doing this for fun I've learned that the faster I go the more fun it seems to be and I'm not fast. So when I do get fast I can only imagine how much more fun it's going to be. Can't forget the sideways action too!

I will give DF a call and get a class going. A good foundation is the best thing as I am still very new.

As for car set up I really don't know a lot about it but am slowly learning. Right now the car has JVL suspension his springs up front and the rear springs are not JVs but a stiffer than stock spring. I don't know how many lbs they are. I need to pull them and check. I used the stock springs before and the car just wouldn't turn. Now these springs the car tends to whip around a bit too easily. Could be me lifting or tapping brakes at the wrong time too.
Also I converted the rear drums to discs and I think maybe the brake bias maybe stronger in the rear. Just a guess though as it seems to feel like that.
One thing I'm thinking is maybe having someone else drive the car and see how it feels and I can get a better idea of what I should change.

Oh I just remembered question about tire pressure. 24lbs

As for the recce tape, yes recced in that car. I'll take that off next time or switch out wheel.


I will look and see if I have footage of Couger. The camera didn't work for the first couple stages. Fixed it at service. So I have everything after that.

So school it is! I think it will be of great value. It seems after this last rally I am more excited to get some lessons and more experience so that I can get back out there with more knowledge and a lot more confidence.

Chris you better learn to mis-trust you judgement....look how things have gone so far.....
You need INTRUCTION but that will only be POTEMTIALLY if you listen AND think..

Consensus means nothing, particularly consensus among a buncha guys who really don't give a shit one way or another REALLY, they're just doing the knee-jerk "Oh. yeah. School...yeah.

I'll risk pissing you off: You aren't ready for paying others top instruct you...
And if you continuing doing what you have been doing---ie ZERO practice between Olympus to Olympus---all instruction informal---or informal---for pay or for free will all evaporate..
It will not help you if you don't change a number of things....

('splain why you will somehow get it if Nate says something ---
when you evidently don't get it when same word, same ideas, virtually exact same concept hasn't so far? You saying you don't pay attention unless you pay hundreds of dollars?)
That IS what this "OK school it is" Implies strongly


You should say "OK some BASIC instructions it is then"

Which can be handled fine just has it has been for 30 years---informally.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.