Ill do a +1 for Certifit. Ive bought several panels from them. The Taco, the White GTI, Camry. They come black primer, all i have recieved from them bolted right on no issues.

Quote
john ad hominem*
Consensus means nothing, particularly consensus among a buncha guys who really don't give a shit one way or another REALLY, they're just doing the knee-jerk "Oh. yeah. School...yeah.

Because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they don't care or that their suggestion is 'knee-jerk.'

Quote
john vanlandingham
You aren't ready for paying others top instruct you...
And if you continuing doing what you have been doing---ie ZERO practice between Olympus to Olympus---all instruction informal---or informal---for pay or for free will all evaporate.

I think everyone will agree that if you're not 'ready' for a certain level of instruction then that instruction is probably not worth the time or effort. (Paid, or otherwise)
BUT, everyone is ready for fundamentals level training and what I've found is that when someone has an 'aha' moment, the principle generally sticks, as does the trigger exercise that brought that point home.
NOBODY suggests paid schooling replaces seat time or practicing, only that it can make that seat time more effective.

Quote
john vanfalsedichotomy*
You should say "OK some BASIC instructions it is then"
Which can be handled fine just has it has been for 30 years---informally.

I wonder how someone would measure the value of the instruction they receive.
My instinct tells me that the change in pace of any given novice would be higher after a one-day paid school than it would be after a day in the woods with a learned buddy.
But, we're all in this for fun... and I think there is also a 'communal' nature that can be found when learning in a classroom environment. (joy in seeing the success of others as well as yourself)

I've only been to the DF facility once, for testing, and haven't taken any of the schools. I know several people who've gone to DF - with various levels of skill going in - and NOT ONE came back feeling it was a waste of time or money, and EVERY ONE came back faster and safer on stage.



*http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?2,98205

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Now this is going to be a bit philosophical, but it is grounded in experience (both coaching and as an athlete) for what that’s worth…

I think instruction and coaching is relatively easy to measure, both objectively and subjectively. Objectively, do you get faster, better stronger? Yes? Then that’s good, it was worthwhile. Did YOU think it was worthwhile? This has nothing to do with objective measures, but it WILL impact performance long term. Don’t like an instructor or don’t think they know what they are talking about? You will learn very little. Did it ‘feel’ better?

As for being ‘ready’ for instruction: if you don’t have an instructor that can give you training at the level you ARE, then they are not a good instructor. Even the top level instructors can teach basics, if they can’t, that’s a problem and they shouldn’t be doing it. I’ve worked under international level coaches that could teach 15 year olds how to do something basic or 28 year old men who are at the peak of international competition and do both extremely well. I have very little regard for training that is so restrictive that instructors cannot change the syllabus if needed. (And yes I get in group environments its tough, but it is possible)

I have an opinion on “fast” results. They are lost as easily as they are gained. You can have a great improvement from a onetime training session, but 95% of people will NOT retain that. There are TONS of studies on this within the athletic world. You need a combination of training and reinforcement and repetition.

To get re-enforcement, you need 1 of 2 things, and it is completely personality dependent.

1. Constant work with a coach. 100% of competitive athletics are done this way. Anyone WILL benefit from it because they are CONSTANTLY being corrected, refined and having behaviors enforced.
2. Self-discipline AND introspection/analysis. If you are the type of person that can TRULY analyze yourself and consciously correct what you are doing wrong, then you can go it alone and practice without supervision (or at least some of the time.) BUT you have to be careful not to implant bad behaviors that hurt you.

One of these two things can get most people into a position where they are ‘good’ at something. To become the best, you need pure raw unadulterated natural skill. No matter how much training you have, you can’t beat natural talent.
This is why a good match for a coach is important:
Superstars 99% of the time do NOT make good coaches. They have a large amount of natural ability and a LOT of them cannot analyze their actions well enough to teach someone to do it. They are ‘instinctual’. This is why SO many coaches at high level were not at the peak of their sport.

TLDR:
Can you honestly analyze yourself and have some idea what you should be doing? Great, practice by yourself.

Otherwise, get someone to show you what to do, then practice. Once is not practice. Then get someone to analyze your practice (I pads have made this SOOOO much easier. Athletes no longer have to conceptualize what a coach says… they can see it)

Anyway, this is way too long for RallyAnarchy…

Quote
MattWatson
As for being ‘ready’ for instruction: if you don’t have an instructor that can give you training at the level you ARE, then they are not a good instructor.

To clarify my point on that: I was trying to say that someone who is just starting out is probably wasting everyone's time and money by going to Pat Richard or Dave Higgins for one-on-one training. I have no doubt that either Pat or Dave can adjust and teach the basics, but it would be an awfully expensive way to learn what you could learn in a group setting.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Morison one day you will realise you are no longer the 8th grade class annoying nerd, and that this is not debate club..


Have you met Chris?
You know him even superficially?
Know his circumstances/

Thought so..
Go ahead and bloviate about abstract and idealized ideas and you're Marquise of Queensbury rules of Debate...and yes Morison I know that <--- was silly, you do not need to come and write 4 paragraphs explaining it.

It adds so much je ne se quoi to the discussion.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
MattWatson
Now this is going to be a bit philosophical, but it is grounded in experience (both coaching and as an athlete) for what that’s worth…

I think instruction and coaching is relatively easy to measure, both objectively and subjectively. Objectively, do you get faster, better stronger? Yes? Then that’s good, it was worthwhile. Did YOU think it was worthwhile? This has nothing to do with objective measures, but it WILL impact performance long term. Don’t like an instructor or don’t think they know what they are talking about? You will learn very little. Did it ‘feel’ better?

As for being ‘ready’ for instruction: if you don’t have an instructor that can give you training at the level you ARE, then they are not a good instructor. Even the top level instructors can teach basics, if they can’t, that’s a problem and they shouldn’t be doing it. I’ve worked under international level coaches that could teach 15 year olds how to do something basic or 28 year old men who are at the peak of international competition and do both extremely well. I have very little regard for training that is so restrictive that instructors cannot change the syllabus if needed. (And yes I get in group environments its tough, but it is possible)

I have an opinion on “fast” results. They are lost as easily as they are gained. You can have a great improvement from a onetime training session, but 95% of people will NOT retain that. There are TONS of studies on this within the athletic world. You need a combination of training and reinforcement and repetition.

To get re-enforcement, you need 1 of 2 things, and it is completely personality dependent.

1. Constant work with a coach. 100% of competitive athletics are done this way. Anyone WILL benefit from it because they are CONSTANTLY being corrected, refined and having behaviors enforced.
2. Self-discipline AND introspection/analysis.

If you are the type of person that can TRULY analyze yourself and consciously correct what you are doing wrong, then you can go it alone and practice without supervision (or at least some of the time.) BUT you have to be careful not to implant bad behaviors that hurt you.

One of these two things can get most people into a position where they are ‘good’ at something. To become the best, you need pure raw unadulterated natural skill. No matter how much training you have, you can’t beat natural talent.
This is why a good match for a coach is important:
Superstars 99% of the time do NOT make good coaches. They have a large amount of natural ability and a LOT of them cannot analyze their actions well enough to teach someone to do it. They are ‘instinctual’. This is why SO many coaches at high level were not at the peak of their sport.

TLDR:
Can you honestly analyze yourself and have some idea what you should be doing? Great, practice by yourself.

Otherwise, get someone to show you what to do, then practice. Once is not practice. Then get someone to analyze your practice (I pads have made this SOOOO much easier. Athletes no longer have to conceptualize what a coach says… they can see it)

Anyway, this is way too long for RallyAnarchy…

No it is perfect. This isn't a chat room or twitter..it is supposed to be a "conversation".
You have experience at the International level, you have good observational skills, you've done more here than anybody here......different hardware but that is minor...
Who else has actually competed in serious sports at an International level...
You've said to me how much training and coaching it took....

How many years to attain even OK proficiency do you think it will take if a person drives their car less than 2 hours per year and doesn't touch it in between?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Morison one day you will realise you are no longer the 8th grade class annoying nerd, and that this is not debate club.

I'm guessing something horrible happened to you in public school, likely in a debate club, because you sure seem to reference 'debate club' regularly.

All I'm ever trying to do is have a conversation about things. Afterall... it is supposed to be a "conversation".

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

It is only a conversation worthy of conversing about if you agree with John. Santa apparently brought him a greatly oversized ego one year. No one elses experience or opinions matter. Cool, does make it easier I guess. Less to think about or consider.

I think everyone agrees on further instruction and practice as well as car evaluation. The big questions are what is effective and what is practical . DirtFish or O'Neils come with a monetary cost for sure, and may not be the only answer. The positives would be trained instructors who know how to deal with different personality types and have the ability to impart knowledge to a majority of them. They have a safe place to legally practice said instruction and a safety plan if it all goes wrong. They have instructors who have experience in different vehicles and vehicles you can beat on (for a fee).

PlanB is finding a road, close it off, hope nothing goes wrong, hope 'whomever' instructing actually knows how to do so AND has the ability to evaluate Chris' car . Certainly could be done. Since Robert has ridden with him and has a great amount of experience in our 'business' I'd guess the basics have been covered to some degree.

Chris will have to decide what is right for his situation. I think that is a pretty broad brush JV uses to paint the rest of us with and pretty unfairly. I'd guess all of us care about Chris, his well being, his future his co-drivers etc. Shame on you John, there are always options and answers to be considered.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Have you met Chris?

I might have... I WAS at Olympus afterall...

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

so... yea rally. I need to do more of that.

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
Have you met Chris?

I might have... I WAS at Olympus afterall...

You might have...that's cute.
I have, and have spoken with him extensively here and out drinking beers...about the very subject of driving, instruction and budgets.

So I have after all.

You're still just talking worthless generalities and idealized BS.
Where's that fit with your Rules of Logic BS thing?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham

I have, and have spoken with him extensively here and out drinking beers...about the very subject of driving, instruction and budgets.

So, from his (as all of ours are) biased views on his driving and his needs, you have somehow deduced what he requires based on... talking? Kind of like... what we are doing here?

I'm trying not to post on RA still, but man, this kind of bullshit from you is just too easy to wade into. I'd rather take the opinion of people who have done something AND continue to do something in our sport than some has-been two wheel rider who raced a Saab for a couple years (slowly) back in the late 80's/early 90's.

Matt's sports analogy probably makes the most sense to me. I see it in a simpler way though. For most of us we play soccer (Rally) and we have a soccer ball (Car). When we want to get better what do we do? We take our soccer ball and we go out into the yard and start practicing. Shoot at a net, miss, make some changes until we start to see that we are scoring more. Sure there are private camps and lessons available but what makes up 90% of practice time? It is going out in the back and practicing.

Most of us don't have the kind of money to be dropping on private lessons. There are going to be sacrifices made because we don't have the top level budget available. If we had the budget sure private tests and lessons all year. But some of us are just trying to put cars together and get to events.

Quote
HiTempguy

Quote
john vanlandingham

I have, and have spoken with him extensively here and out drinking beers...about the very subject of driving, instruction and budgets.

So, from his (as all of ours are) biased views on his driving and his needs, you have somehow deduced what he requires based on... talking? Kind of like... what we are doing here?

I'm trying not to post on RA still, but man, this kind of bullshit from you is just too easy to wade into. I'd rather take the opinion of people who have done something AND continue to do something in our sport than some has-been two wheel rider who raced a Saab for a couple years (slowly) back in the late 80's/early 90's.

Adam you cowardly faggot, I see you are too ashamed of yourself to keep your name up when you come to talk shit and troll.

There is a huge difference between typing a pile of drivel---what 99% of everything you've ever posted anywhere I've seen---and talking face to face with a guy on several occasions for hours....
I continue to do much more than you have or ever will in motosport, so keep dreaming that you are somebody and you know something...I am buried with other people project, you know making things for a bewildering variety of cars---and people win events with my stuff...that means I must be doing something right...
But you wouldn't understand that being a simple minded consumer...

Go troll elsewhere Vokes.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Thomas Kimsey
Most of us don't have the kind of money to be dropping on private lessons. There are going to be sacrifices made because we don't have the top level budget available. If we had the budget sure private tests and lessons all year. But some of us are just trying to put cars together and get to events.

I'm not sayin', just sayin', the individual we are talking about has a test day 4.5 hours (and a border crossing) away from him at the end of July. That's about the same distance away as test days are for me in the same province.

I've come to the conclusion that if I haven't done an event in <3 months, I want to do a test day before I compete at my next event. Luckily, in Western Canada, this option is available to me and I greatly appreciate it, it helps me quickly identify my deficiencies or issues with the car before I show up at an event weekend that is going to cost me $1500+. A test day? Under $500.

Have any of the organizers in the PNW approached DirtFish for a test day site rental? I find it (in my mind anyways) hard to believe that they are booked solid every, single, day for all hours of the day.

Since there would be a lot less overhead on the people putting the event on (no setup or closure of roads), you could probably make it a test "evening" or "morning" depending on noise restrictions that I think they were suffering from. Work out a deal with them to rent their instructors. Seems to me a company like that would love to have 10-15 cars that they don't have to maintain show up, willing to pay $400(?) to test. Don't they also sponsor events?

Practice does make perfect; an event is not a good place to practice IF YOU CAN HELP IT. Which is a big if. You aren't learning very much at an event though if you aren't banging every gear to redline and braking hard. It's just the nature of the beast.