Let's get political. Gun Debate!

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JohnLane

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heymagic
The case for 30rd clips could be made for grenade launchers.

I fellow would have to be pretty burly to lug it around....

It would be fun to have a grenade launcher. My nearest neighbor is about 1,000 feet away, and knowing him I'd bet he'd like to try it too

Seems to me that there's arguments taking place here which favour citizens to carry concealed weapons. I mean some feel that guns stop shootings and prevent mass shootings. Guns are the answer to everything. Put more guns in the hands of citicizens, conceal them, and everyone can stop the perps.

The US is already the most armed country in the world - 90 guns per 100 people.

U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms.

Doesn't seem to be enough because there's still senseless shootings taking place.

Better buy more guns, and resent the fact that some people in the US want gun control. Those gun control nuts, don't they know that gun control will lead to fewer people with guns. Which in turn will create more mass shootings because there's less armed citizens?

Theres been pro gun people who blame the shootings on people with mental health issues. The institutions are gone and people are left untreated.

What is a mental health issue anyways?

Depression and anxiety are both mental health issues.

Statistically 1 in 10 people in the US is taking anti-depressants.

Side effects "can" include suicidal thoughts in some people, and a host of other nasty side effects.

Some estimate that 45% of the US population owns guns.

That's a whole lots of gun owners that are on meds!

Many more medicated zombies are driving every day, and they drive behind you in front of you and towards you. Be very afraid of them.

Canada is far from immune to nut jobs and school shootings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

We are an armed nation no doubt, good or bad. Perhaps that is the reason we don't have a queen?

I see the crazy guy in New York got his neighbor to buy the guns for him, a federal offense. So the law stopped him personally but he found a way to circumvent the laws. People will always find a way to do bad things if they are so inclined.

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john vanlandingham
Well original;ly before little boys up past their beddy bye time tried to derail this, it was about MASS murders by gun wielding psychopaths

Soft targets like what burglers want isn't this subject. Like many have said, they're losers who often will flee at the sound of a 12ga being racked.

As for the Fantasy boy shit about "Armed citizens stopping......"
Maybe just some research? maybe?


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation

We used a conservative set of criteria to build a comprehensive rundown of high-profile attacks in public places—at schools, workplaces, government buildings, shopping malls—though they represent only a small fraction of the nation's overall gun violence.
The FBI defines a mass murderer as someone who kills four or more people in a single incident, usually in one location. (As opposed to spree or serial killers, who strike multiple times.)

We excluded cases involving armed robberies or gang violence; dropping the number of fatalities by just one, or including those motives, would add many, many more cases. (More about our criteria here.)

There was one case in our data set in which an armed civilian played a role. Back in 1982, a man opened fire at a welding shop in Miami, killing eight and wounding three others before fleeing on a bicycle. A civilian who worked nearby pursued the assailant in a car, shooting and killing him a few blocks away (in addition to ramming him with the car). Florida authorities, led by then-state attorney Janet Reno, concluded that the vigilante had used force justifiably, and speculated that he may have prevented additional killings. But even if we were to count that case as a successful armed intervention by a civilian, it would account for just 1.6 percent of the mass shootings in the last 30 years.


More broadly, attempts by armed civilians to stop shooting rampages are rare—and successful ones even rarer.
There were two school shootings in the late 1990s, in Mississippi and Pennsylvania, in which bystanders with guns ultimately subdued the teen perpetrators, but in both cases it was after the shooting had subsided.

Other cases led to tragic results. In 2005, as a rampage unfolded inside a shopping mall in Tacoma, Washington, a civilian named Brendan McKown confronted the assailant with a licensed handgun he was carrying. The assailant pumped several bullets into McKown and wounded six people before eventually surrendering to police after a hostage standoff. (A comatose McKown eventually recovered after weeks in the hospital.)
In Tyler, Texas, that same year, a civilian named Mark Wilson fired his licensed handgun at a man on a rampage at the county courthouse. Wilson—who was a firearms instructor—was shot dead by the body-armored assailant, who wielded an AK-47. (None of these cases were included in our mass shootings data set because fewer than four victims died in each.)

Appeals to heroism on this subject abound. So does misleading information. Gun rights die-hards frequently credit the end of a rampage in 2002 at the Appalachian School of Law in Virginia to armed "students" who intervened—while failing to disclose that those students were also current and former law enforcement officers, and that the killer, according to police investigators, was out of ammo by the time they got to him.


Little less exciting when a little info comes out.

John,

Here's evidence to refute you.

http://www.cato.org/guns-and-self-defense

And a white paper with numerous documented cases of armed self defense.

http://www.cato.org/publications/white-paper/tough-targets-when-criminals-face-armed-resistance-citizens

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It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

If an armed assailant walks into a mall and shoot a dozen unarmed people then there will be an outcry for both arming more people as well as making guns harder to get. Neither argument is an absolute.

Repeat the above and have an armed citizen try and fail to stop the event. Eloi will tout the failure as proof being armed won't work. Morlocks will say more people will need to be armed. Again neither position is an absolute.

Repeat again and this time the villian gets shot and stopped, or just stopped by an armed citizen . Eloi will be quiet if no other person was hurt or vocal if a dozen people were killed first. Being armed didn't save the first dozen. Morlocks wil note the successful stoppage and note that if even more people were armed the carnage would have been less. Again no absolutes.

Looking at the above scenarios one could reasonably state that if a gunman walked into an unarmed mall and started shooting, the crowd wouldn't shoot back. Pretty absolute. The possiblitiy of self defense is greatly reduced by an unarmed target. For me the choice of being an unarmed target should be a personal choice and not government mandated.

Anything from choice of diapers to assisted suicide can be argued from several points of view and never will there be an absolute solution. Too many people care about themselves and being right. They feel bad a school was shot up but in the same breath point out THEY were right that guns should have been banned or everyone should have been armed. Either way there is always an ulterior motive.

You can dang well bet the idiots in DC who can't figure out how to deal with the middle east, world economy, drilling for oil or even our fiscal cliff won't have an intelligent solution to reduce violence among our population. We are neither truly Eloi or Morlocks....possibly a combination of both.

Truer words can't be spoken about the idiots in DC....

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

Columbine had an armed gaurd. he died cause they shot first.

The Army Base in Texaswas presumably full of trained killers and piles of arms, din't help those who were murdered.

The 4 cops in Lakewood were awake and armed, and a loser killed all 4 because he shot first..


Boys argue all you want but something is fucked up in this country that is NOT fucked up in other civilised countries and that's that what would be a Pub tussel ending with head butt and a punch elsewhere, HERE just maybe because there's so many paranoid, scared people there's hundreds of millions of guns and
the argument ends with a bunch of dead bodies.

There is, despite the forum Chihuahua's inability to grasp it, a major difference between being punched up, maybe sliced and wounded and being dead...but being brain dead I can understand why he would distinguish the differences.


Same with suicide.

Same with Police encounters..

Whatever, live on in you're fantasies of " when they come to take my gunz I'm going shoot the crew of that attack helicopter they sent to back up that M1 Abrams I picked off the crew of, and add to the of mounds of bodies piling ever deeper round your house...

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Lots of people have also survived gunshots, thousands I'd guess if not more. Agressors with an advantage whether an axe,ice pic or AK always have the advantage of initial attack. 4 police officers, who weren't paranoid, sitting at a table get shot unexpectedly. Tragic and definitely not a normal lunch break. They were targeted. The school kids were targeted. Who knows why and what made the agressor tip over at that point. Even the Army base shooting was a surprise and totally unexpected. It happens, all over the world too. None of your examples were of the bar fight, head butting type fights gone bad.

Can't recall seeing a post here declaring anyone would shoot police or troops to retain their guns.

for those who have no idea how the military really works, basically on your average base, very few people are actually armed. This is even worse at a hospital. The AF based I am at has a no firearm policy there, so even the security forces folks have to be dearmed to go in. Meaning its just a bunch of people in a building.

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heymagic


Can't recall seeing a post here declaring anyone would shoot police or troops to retain their guns.

Well the subject started as a result of yet another mass murder..
It is everybody else who keeps yapping about killing all the crazed burglers.

And there is an underlying presumption in the hard core loons contained in their statements that the whole 2nd Amendment is all so that the evil Gubbymint should remain in fear of an armed populace---which is total horseshit but it doesn't matter what the obvious intent of these men of the English Enlightenment was, now all that matters is how uneducated, undisciplined people who want it to justify their received idea of what it means, that's all that counts...so no point trying to convince them that the intention was to avoid the evil of a standing army...which they had direct experience with and it sorta bugged them to be forced to pay for the costs of without any say in the matter..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
There is, despite the forum Chihuahua's inability to grasp it, a major difference between being punched up, maybe sliced and wounded and being dead...but being brain dead I can understand why he would distinguish the differences.

The amount of pick and choose comprehension you possess astounds me. I am in awe of your blatant dismissal of everything you do not like. I cannot comprehend a world so black and white. I am absolutely amazed you have managed to survive as long as you have with how much tunnel vision you have.

Do you own a fire extinguisher? Are you in fear of fire? Or do you have one just in case?

Then again, after your leg, you might be justifiably afraid of fire.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

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Dazed_Driver

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john vanlandingham
There is, despite the forum Chihuahua's inability to grasp it, a major difference between being punched up, maybe sliced and wounded and being dead...but being brain dead I can understand why he would distinguish the differences.

The amount of pick and choose comprehension you possess astounds me. I am in awe of your blatant dismissal of everything you do not like. I cannot comprehend a world so black and white. I am absolutely amazed you have managed to survive as long as you have with how much tunnel vision you have.

Do you own a fire extinguisher? Are you in fear of fire? Or do you have one just in case?

Then again, after your leg, you might be justifiably afraid of fire.

Have you ever pondered for just one second that your conclusions---saying I have a "black and white' view" ---might be not just wrong, but absurd?

And "tunnel vision"? that's is plain amusing..

Timmy don't think. When you think, the sum total of human knowledge accumulated over the centuries is diminished.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham

Timmy don't think. When you think, the sum total of human knowledge accumulated over the centuries is diminished.

That's a new one. I'm proud of you. Our own Lil Johnny is growing up and stepping out of his comfort of usual boring and worn out jabs.

Do you have anything else you'd like to share with the class?


When will you realize that I just do not give a fuuuuuuuuuck what you think, or say about me, and I basically only respond because its amusing to me, yes, I am getting amused at your efforts.

Here's how it works. I say something you deem to be stupid (most of my comments), you insult me (generally calling me a small dog, or using the VERY hard to notice fact that my car is not done (which you think that after 5 years, if it really bothered me that it wasn't done, it would be/I would be whining about it more/whatever - Newflash, I'm ok with it not being done. I have other priorities at the moment.), I read your insults, all 5000 words of them. I then type something reasonably quick hit post, and go do something else. I only assume you sit there drinking tea, fuming, and trying to find other people you deem wrong on the internet. After you do that, I postulate that you return to rally anarchy on your crusade against me. You see my comments, enraged, you respond in FLASH OF OVER DRAMATIC SPELLING ERROR FILLED ANGRY WORDS! WORDS! WOOOOOOOOOOORDDDDDDSSSSSSSSS!

Then I read it, chuckle, and repeat the part where I say something again.


And for 4-5 years, that's how its worked, quite reliably. Know... who's really the dumb one? If we are going to get nit picky, is it the one that doesn't always agree with you (I actually do agree with you, maybe not 50% of the time, but maybe 35...) or the one that is as predictable as monday always following sunday?

I leave you with that, and I dont think you can't respond to me, But I'll dare you not too.

However, the most likely conclusion is you'll quote this, either convert my text to "... ... ..." or "blah blah I'm a small dog yapping at old fossils (see what I did there? Baiting. It's worked quite well on you for YEEEAAARRRSS. Try not falling for it. lol )"

And then you'll go on some profanity laced tirade about how worthless I am and I should kill myself.


And it goes around and around and around. You troll me, I troll you. That's how it works. I never start it. You always do. If you want it to stop... shut the hell up for once and go on with your life. And yes, I suppose the same could be said for me.

Please shut the fuck up.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Okay JVL go fer it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2012 04:30PM by Jens.