Let's get political. Gun Debate!

Jens,

Not really much disagreeing. I don't hunt anymore either and we don't have bear around here. Do have deer in the back yard. I did shoot a 'possum under the deck that my basset cornered in the middle of the night. Thankfully the dog didn't get bit. Used the pellet gun. Won't do that again. Bought some sub sonic rounds for the .22 Have had a bit of a wabbit problem this year and a few of those were dispatched with the pellet gun also.

For larger animal defense the AR and a full clip should work. For people defense in a home I'd still grab the Smith. Nice to have options isn't it?

At our age I'm now deciding to get the things I've always wanted, even if I don't keep them long.

Nice thing about guns ,or bad thing depending on your view, is they kind of last forever with normal use and care. I'd guess 90-95% of all guns sold in the US in the last 100 years are still out there somewhere. That is a big number and would be difficult for anybody to just take away.

The pellet rifle didnt stop the possum? How big is a possum???

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

I have read through just a few of the posts on this thread.

When I heard the news it saddened me. I didn't think of gun control, or of the mental illness issues that face so many. I thought of the children all so innocent how short their lives were and why this happened, not how or what if. There are no answers to my questions but there were a lot of young lives lost and if there is a God and he let this happen I think he surely wanted to send us a message or make us think about something other than gun control.

There are also many, many lives lost through accidents which begs the question of responsibility.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/daughter-washington-police-officer-dies-shot-sibling-reports-article-1.1037383



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2012 06:41PM by Wannabe.

Quote
Dazed_Driver
The pellet rifle didnt stop the possum? How big is a possum???

This was about the size of large rabbit or small dog. Had drool hanging in strings from it mouth. Big teeth and it was pissed. Pellet gun is just a .177 not a .22. Ok for birds not rated for varmints. First shot took it out but it wasn't dead and flopped around having fits. Trying to re-pump, keep the dog from attacking and stay back myself was pretty exciting. A good .22 pellet gun is $100 or better.

Quote
Wannabe
I have read through just a few of the posts on this thread.

When I heard the news it saddened me. I didn't think of gun control, or of the mental illness issues that face so many. I thought of the children all so innocent how short their lives were and why this happened, not how or what if. There are no answers to my questions but there were a lot of young lives lost and if there is a God and he let this happen I think he surely wanted to send us a message or make us think about something other than gun control.

There are also many, many lives lost through accidents which begs the question of responsibility.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/daughter-washington-police-officer-dies-shot-sibling-reports-article-1.1037383

I'm sure all of us were sickened. No normal person would do such a thing. As the details came out it was obvious the kid had issues beyond what we can relate to. Too many people aren't responsible for their actions or inactions. Keeping firearms away from small kids, teaching kids what guns are about and shut the f'n tv off once in a while. Problem with gun control is after a point it punishes all of us, and we aren't the problem.

I just love the email message things that flood the junk mail section like the tired old thing jay posted claiming all these places "enacted gun control---then the government slaughtered "their' citizens"

Quote

"In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

"In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

"Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

"China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

"Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

"Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

"Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."

Its so full or wrong first of which is logic . Because something happened after does not mean one thing is the cause..

Quote

See: Alias: Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc

Translation: After this, therefore because of this, Latin

Type: Non Causa Pro Causa
Forms
Event C happened immediately prior to event E.
Therefore, C caused E. Events of type C happen immediately prior to events of type E.
Therefore, events of type C cause events of type E.......
Analysis of the Examples
Counter-Example:

Roosters crow just before the sun rises.
Therefore, roosters crowing cause the sun to rise.
Exposition:

The Post Hoc Fallacy is committed whenever one reasons to a causal conclusion based solely on the supposed cause preceding its "effect". Of course, it is a necessary condition of causation that the cause precede the effect, but it is not a sufficient condition. Thus, post hoc evidence may suggest the hypothesis of a causal relationship, which then requires further testing, but it is never sufficient evidence on its own.

But second is, History, a favorite passtime of serious reading for the last 50 years.. Usually up past 0100 reading.

Let's look at a few of the claims:
"China" established gun control in 1935...did they? Come on doesn't anybody read history here?
What was "China" or to what degree did WHICH government excercise any control..
Which? Yeah Beijing or Beiping, Nanjing, or Ruijin, Bao'an or Yan'an?


Those were the "capital" in the time period.


Read:

Quote

By moving the capital to Nanjing, Chiang was secured in his power base, completing the Northeast Flag Replacement of Chinese reunification in 1928. Many warlords were not defeated but co-opted into the new national government which would trouble Chiang. Feng Yuxiang and Yan Xishan rebelled in 1930 in the Central Plains War. The northwest erupted into the Xinjiang Wars from 1931-37. Chiang had to put down the Fujian Rebellion in 1933-34. Zhang Xueliang took part in the 1936 Xi'an Incident. In addition minor warlords, bandits, ethnic minority militias, and the communists were active in the countryside and peripheral regions. The KMT itself was plagued by factionalism with influential leaders like Wang Jingwei and Hu Hanmin rebelling against Chiang. Chiang's actual power was weaker beyond the provinces surrounding Jiangsu. In short, warlordism did not end but took on a different appearance. All cliques now wore the Zhongshan suit and had party membership, effectively becoming KMT franchisees. It was not until after the end of the Chinese Civil War in 1950 that anything resembling a united, centralized government like that prior to 1915 re-emerged.

So an ongoing Civil War with hundreds of thousands of CCP troops all over, warlords revolting all over, Japan marching in 1931 and occupying all of Manchuria then in '37 in open war against all of China, and extra brutally against civilans, then in '45 the final act in the Civil War begun by the KMT against their allies the CCP back in 1927





And we're supposed to believe the place was unarmed and "could not defend itself"
When anybody knows it was aswarm with weapons of all sorts, even aircraft and artillery..

Oh yeah "China" is in fragments and at war on numerous fronts pass a hand gun law...and all that followed was a result of that..

Yeah right.

More later, I'm having too much fun reading about the other places which were also awash in weapons of all sorts...

Like Armenia which had revolted several times in the 1890s and again at the Russian Empries' instigation and with Russian help against the ottoman Turks..here's a piccie of some armed to the teeth:



Here's one of their leaders, looks like a Moisin Nagant he's holding


It should be easy to find info on all the decades long armed resistance inside the Soviet Union to control by Moscow...all the way into the 1960s.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2012 02:13AM by john vanlandingham.

So you're indicating that citizens need to be armed to protect themselves?

How about quit picking on good people like Jay and John, spread your pro-communist shit elsewehere. Maps, rantings and irrelevant facts have nothing to do with what happened in Sandy Hook.

The only reason you can sit on your computer and constantly criticize our govenrment and society, policies and people is because of an armed rebellion, lost lives and over 200 years of staying on course of preserving individual rights. In China and many other nations you would currently be dead or imprisoned.

Back to the original discussion....
Wayne LaPierre ,CEO of the NRA, is a terrible spokesman. His physical appearance and projection is harsh and somewhat cold. He actually had spittle in the corner of his mouth on his Anderson interview. This isn't going to go well I fear.

Hey Gene are you fucking serious?

Picking on who?

Just who the fuck are you scolding? Scold the fools that bring simplistic internet based junk mail like Lane and Jay.
The "irrelevant shit" is in direct answer to bullshit..as in childishly easy to recognise as made up bullshit that Jay poste---which had NOTHING to to with the crazy murders OR the reality--or historical record.


I am the one that keeps trying to get this liitle discussion to look at root causes of why USA alone among the industrialised country has a astronomical murder rate. but boys wanna talk either cut and paste junk mail or their toys.

Why the fuck don't you scold Lane and Jay and Timbo when they're off on the fantasy shit "I haz my guns and blah blah?"

And the only reason ANY of us have any rights Gene was the ordinary people stood and got their heads bashed in demanding their civil and political rights in enough numbers that it was an embarrassment to the
world and the hypocrisy between the lofty goals in the Declaration of Independance and the Bill of Rights and reality, when those brave idiots that got their heads bashed in arrived in Court, and brave lawyers secured changes IN COURTROOMS, Gene.
Not military action or via weapons.
Property did not then or not now give up ANYTHING voluntarily...

You too could stand to learn some history.
EVERYBODY could.

So gawddammit now you see it was in direct answer to something a good person said which was bad?

Jay isn't bad because he's pastes junk mail shit full of lies and error, he simply wrong.. Not good, nor bad..

You are bad for scolding me. Again and again.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
heymagic
Back to the original discussion....
Wayne LaPierre ,CEO of the NRA, is a terrible spokesman. His physical appearance and projection is harsh and somewhat cold. He actually had spittle in the corner of his mouth on his Anderson interview. This isn't going to go well I fear.

His plan is stupid.

If the armed cop ends up anything like TSA, and to cut the 6-7 Billion cost of beginning to implement it--it would---and end up being just for show just like TSA, he's probably have a heart attack if he had to run from one end of my girls school to the other...

And if the cop is a few rooms away, its too late..

What next a cop in every room with Ar locked and loaded?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

So the NRA's genius leader also exists in a fantasy land like his supports --no surprise there.
His brilliant idea is to have volunteers armed in schools..

No doubt they'd all be NRA members who already have excessive fear and threat perception...sounds real good.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
heymagic
Back to the original discussion....
Wayne LaPierre ,CEO of the NRA, is a terrible spokesman. His physical appearance and projection is harsh and somewhat cold. He actually had spittle in the corner of his mouth on his Anderson interview. This isn't going to go well I fear.

Yup.

Doesn't this guy have any "handlers" like politicians and celebrities have that can sit off screen and indicate to him to wipe his mouth etc? Sheesh.....

I stopped my NRA membership in the mid or late 90's, because they did not represent me. I am thinking of rejoining (temporarily possibly) to stop this rabid media anti-gun agenda, but I will have to hold my nose to do it.

This week there was a panel on local PBS station in Hartford CT. There were 4 anti-gun reps, and 2 pro-gun reps. Most all were old white guys (one anti was a rich Dem senator). One of the pro guys was openly hostile and made gun owners look like crap.

The pro-gun owners need to get their crap together and stop being represented only by old white men. There are plenty of younger shooters that I hope will get involved in the discussion in the media.

Recently on local TV (Hartford, CT) there was a very eloquent, black, poised, young (mid to late 20's or early 30's?) pro-gun shooter being interviewed at a range and he was terrific!!!!! (I don't know his name)

The NRA needs to change. (Don't misunderstand me: I am NOT saying AR15's should be banned or this silly 30 round mag crap, but the media representatives must be MUCH BETTER!!!!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2012 11:51AM by Jens.

John,
I'm not scolding you. Your unwaivering obsession to be always right isn't always the best road to take. Sometimes a person needs to just set back and not pursue it. Just my opinion. Not scolding. You are free to continue your educational posts as desired.

History changes with the person writing the book btw.


Armed security or teachers isn't a bad thing. Federal involvement (as TSA shows) may not be a good thing. As pointed out earlier schools have been shown to be an easy target, world wide, so something could be looked at to chnage that. It certainly isn't the answer.

Quote
heymagic
John,
I'm not scolding you. Your unwaivering obsession to be always right isn't always the best road to take. Sometimes a person needs to just set back and not pursue it. Just my opinion. Not scolding. You are free to continue your educational posts as desired.

History changes with the person writing the book btw.


Armed security or teachers isn't a bad thing. Federal involvement (as TSA shows) may not be a good thing. As pointed out earlier schools have been shown to be an easy target, world wide, so something could be looked at to chnage that. It certainly isn't the answer.

You are scolding me, you're saying I'm "attacking" "good people".
You're not commenting on them attacking logic , reason or simple common knowledge of history and half educated person should know.

I believe that part of the problem here is that there is a toleration of "bad ideas" , "wrong" ideas from childhood onward. aAnd a strong tendancy toward 'equivocation", bullshit like "they're all the same" and "that's just your opinion" and people never have their ideas challenged, and never learn to defend their ideas---no dialog..

I see a connection to this and the anomalous high murder rates---weak minded people get a stupid idea that a solution to his "problem' is to...and he's never known restraint.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

"The solution for gun violence in America is more guns will be true when the solution for obesity in America is more food." _{some genius.}

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.