Let's get political. Gun Debate!

Quote
RWD4ME
It's obvious that theres some very pro gun people responding to this thread.

A lot of people are stubborn and idealisitc of what they've grown accustomed to. Once you embrace a gun culture I image it's difficult to embrace change, regardless of the circumstance or motivation.

What's the real point here?

It isn't pit bulls, home defense, hunting, the failure of the mental health system, etc?

It has nothing to do with the Second Ammendment. That argument goes out the window with, the federal punishment for felon gun possession is up to 10 years in prison. Where does it state in the constitution that a criminal doesn't have the right to bare arms? The point is, it doesn't! So the modern day interpretation of the constitution is selective and can change based on preference and mandate.

What's the real point here?

Sandy Hook Elementary School!

Have you stopped to think about what the effects are of 100+ rounds fired from an AR15 at close range into school hallways and class rooms look like? The blood of adults on hallway floors, walls, ceilings. Adults that gave their lives to protect children. 20 lifeless bodies of 6 and 7 year olds strewn about class rooms with multiple gun shot wounds, from close range. Were they torso, back, limb, head shots etc? What does that look like? Have you stopped to imagine the carnage and the chaos?

It makes me sick and the thoughts make me feel nauseas.

If you're a pro gun person, what personal sacrifice in terms of your personal gun ownership are you willing to make to " help" prevent something like this from this happening again?

Not stubborn and idealistic, not at all. You probably don't hear of the times when someone was able to use a gun without firing a shot to deter an attack. Look at what happened to Gabby Gifford. Loughner was stopped by someone with a gun finally without the armed citizen taking a shot to stop Loughner. Loughner I guess weighed the risks and decided he didn't want to stop breathing right then. I can cite numerous other examples to support this view. Just let me know.

To me, the Constitution is a bedrock of principles. When you say modern day interpretation I reject that idea. Technology changes. I mean, look at where we are right now discussing this issue. Twenty years ago, only universities and the military could access the internet. Anyone with access can publish anything they want. And yet when someone's first amendment right are threatened, we don't all of a sudden say, "Let's ban or severely curtail internet connected computers. Someone might libel someone and we just can't have that."

I bet those good folks spent their lives selflessly protecting those children and God bless them for doing so. So yes, I have given it thought and prayed for those folks. What happens when someone gathers a bomb and uses it in a school, a movie theater, a federal building ( wait, remember Timothy McVeigh?) What if they crash a semi into a busload of kids? Are we going to ban semis? Are we going to ban ammonium nitrate? We do already regulate it quite heavily.

So to answer your final question, as a gun control advocate, what personal sacrifice are you willing to give up in terms of personal safety to make certain this never happens again?

---

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

Quote
RWD4ME
If you're a pro gun person, what personal sacrifice in terms of your personal gun ownership are you willing to make to " help" prevent something like this from this happening again?

I am willing to provide my time as armed security in a school.

Is it really intent that you are so worried about? Lets talk about intent and our children.

http://www.victimsofcrime.org/news-center/reporter-resources/child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics

A Bureau of Justice Statistics report shows 1.6 % (sixteen out of one thousand) of children between the ages of 12-17 were victims of rape/sexual assault (page 18).

16 OUT OF 1000!!!!!!!!!!

Do you have any idea what that number actually looks like? No, because it’s not broadcast for a week straight on every news channel in the US. Is it more heinous than this past school shooting? Maybe….maybe….

Jerry “may he burn in hell” Sandusky is convicted of 52 counts sexual abuse to minors and is in the news….and what does the government do to protect our children? Where is the outcry?

I’m not a gun advocate and I seriously doubt I’ll be affected by anything the government decides other than increase cost to ammo and I can afford that. I am however a freedom advocate. Any time the government wants to take away my rights or the rights of others I question and more often than not oppose it. I don’t want or need the government making all my decisions for me. I don’t trust them enough for it.

You want to take away someone’s freedom take away the criminal’s freedom. Instead of putting people to death like we do now (which costs more than it does keeping that person in jail for 40 years by the way!!!) probe and prod them and study them until we figure out what turned them into such monsters. MAYBE, just maybe we could learn something and prevent it from happening.

But instead we say, “it’s the guns…it's the guns.....if you fix the gun laws it will stop this….” Reminds me of a movie I saw once (maybe twice)….”These cans….its these cans….he really hates these cans!!!”

I studied law enforcement and criminology when I was in school. I took a seminar on violent crime and I will never look at people the same way after that. Guns aren’t the problem. People are. People are far sicker and more evil than you care to know. I’ve spent way more time than the average person studying and thinking about violent crime. Am I an expert? Surely not. I’d much rather not think about it. Is my opinion more important than yours? Absolutely not. I’m just venting on a rally car forum. Hahaha.

Think about it though. What are the odds of your child being killed in an automobile accident or raped vs being killed in a mass shooting? Are we really focusing on the right solutions to keep our children safe? Are we really spending the time, money, and effort in the correct places or are people pushing agendas?

Seriously though, no offense to anyone. And I’m sorry to hear about your brother and his friend Grant.

This subject is interesting, but just like politics, it seems that the lines are drawn, and not too many people will actually come together and agree. It's just an online argument. I'm guilty, so allow my ramble!

The massacre was a tradgedy. I have three little boys, and I just can't imagine what they went through. Watching in horror as their friends died, and then facing that gun in their final moments. I think giving it some thought and allowing that to sink in is important. It literally brings me to tears.
But...

After that we really have to put it into perspective. Life isn't fair. It just isn't. Little kids die in unfair and cruel circumstance every day. Cancer, car accidents, drowning. The sorrow and heartbreak is little different for those involved. It rips people and families apart. I hope I never have to live through anything like that. Watching my dad die a painful death of cancer (that he created by smoking) was bad enough. Like I said, that's not turning our backs on what happened. It's just understanding that there are many millions who live in this country, and billions in the world. Bad shit happens.

OK, so there are legitimate questions that can be asked. Why do we Americans suffer much higher rates of violence than other countries (first world)? What about our culture causes this? Can we stop these crazies with mental health intervention? Can gun control work to reduce the number of mass shootings and/or their severity? If we're going to enact emotional 'feel good' legislation limiting anything about guns then what about the other causes of unfair death that go conveniently ignored? Can we really create an antiseptic 'feel good' country by law, or will the uncomfortable truth (people have evil in them, some WAY more than others) be bubbling just under the politically correct surface?

So here are some thoughts I've picked up along the way. 80 people (not just kids) died in 'mass shootings' this year. A significant number, but in a country of over 300 million your odds are very good (of never seeing or being affected in any personal way in your entire life).

No kids died in school fires. There are: Fire resistant structures, fire bulkhead doors, fire extinguishers, fire alarms, sprinkler systems, self powered exit signs etc. Layers and layers of protection, and money well spent. A++

If we suggest arming someone in schools there is quite an outcry from some people. Let's get real here. Some crazies are shooting, but others are raping, kidnapping, selling drugs, and otherwise harming our kids! Islamist extremists have shown a propencity for shooting up schools with no remorse. Don't you think they are watching? How hard would it be to take a school? Or a number of school buses? I don't want my kids to be locked in a prison every day, and realistically, they will be a soft target pretty much no matter what, but why not a layered security approach?

Someone said this hit them harder than 911. OK, like I said, I understand and feel the pain and emotion, but get ahold of yourself (said in a nice way).

I have three guns. A 12ga pump that holds 7, a 20 ga pump, and a .22 youth rifle that holds 13 but is difficult to reload quickly. Legislation won't affect me. I don't care for the AR's because I think they are mostly styling excercises. Often they are relatively 'cheaply built and priced' and that makes them attractive. A powerful hunting rifle can do just as much if not more damage at longer range. But the reason I resist a ban on AR's is that I feel like it's a pointless emotional waste of time and $$. Smaller clips might make a small difference in a small number of cases. But I primarily feel the same way about that. A determined killer can easily find a way to carry several smaller clips, and multiple weapons and do the same damage. Mandating one shot weapons. But what about the HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of guns out there right now? I'm no hero, and I'm far from paranoid. Hell, my keys are in my car in the parking lot right now! Before I had a family I almost never locked the doors. Now that I have kids, and guns the house is locked, but you get the idea. That being said, I want/demand the right to arms. When the shit hits the fan I want the ability to not be the helpless victim. I also spent a lot of time training in ground fighting. I learned that a little guy like me can easily defeat a much larger opponent, and that I can just as easily slip and knock my head on the cement and die. It really taught to respect the fact that there is no glory in physical altercations, and no matter your skill, it can turn against you in a flash. The best defense is to keep yourself out of situations that lead to that in the first place, and maintain awareness.

Conclusions? I'm not sure there are any. Obviously mental health care needs to be looked at. Will that 'work', probably not. Maybe a bit. We can do some to tighten up security at schools. Perhaps the local police force posts a cop at every school. How about locked doors that can't be shot out, and an ID check before admittance. Would that prevent school shootings? Probably not. But we can help make our kids less of a soft There will still be a way to kill lots of kids. Take away or place severe regulations on guns? I'm against it just because I don't think any realistic regulations will be effective.
So HOW do we change our society? We've clearly shown that other societies both with and without available firearms are less violent and suffer less murder of all kinds. I have a feeling the uncomfortable truth is that we'll have to dig down deep. Others have touched on it, but we're just skimming the surface. Violent video games aren't the cause, but parents who allow their kids to play them at young ages are very misguided. The same with television. The same with internet and Facebook. The 'every body wins' PC attitudes are poison. The 'every body gets an iPad' for christmas even if we're broke materialism is poisonous. The blame everyone but yourself for your circumstances instead of rising to the challenge attitude is dangerous. The we need both parents to work full time so they can be 'fulfilled' and afford the mansion instead of creating a strong happy family is dangerous. The attitude that divorce is an option instead of really trying to work out our strained relationships is dangerous (often), but of course, this is partly due to all of the above. There are many many other problems. I see it in my neighborhood. New houses. I see my neighbors when the garage door opens and then closes. It's easy to live years next to people and never know their names! When people run into trouble, they look for Gov assistance, but we see less and less of neighbors helping neighbors like the good old days. Less kids playing in the street. More 'play dates'. Less mud puddles and more hand sanitizer. Less mainstreet, more strip mall. Basically what I'm talking about is less community!

More thoughts bouncing around in my head, but I'm done!

This is a great read: http://www.infowars.com/life-is-dangerous-ban-everything/

Although the tragic, senseless murder of 20 children in a Connecticut shooting last Friday has been hyped to demonize the 2nd Amendment, is it possible to ban everything that causes children harm just because one sick person decides to commit a heinous crime?

According to the National Center for Health Statistics, firearm homicides account for 2.7 child deaths (which includes all children under the age of 19) per 100,000 people here in America. To put this statistic in perspective, motor vehicle injuries account for nearly three times as many deaths at 8.1 children per 100,000. School bus accidents have killed whole classes of children in one fatal moment, but no one is clamoring to ban cars and school buses.

The 2011 F.B.I. Uniform Crime Report actually shows that American violence is down across the country. Violent crimes such as murder have officially dropped for the 5th year in a row; the number of American murders is now the lowest it has been in more than 40 years.

Children are the most fragile members of society. Unfortunately, history shows that gun bans do not stop mentally disturbed people from finding ways to commit school massacres.

Private ownership of guns is banned in China and almost completely forbidden in Japan. Over the years, gruesome mass school stabbings have become a familiar happening in those countries. In June 2001, a former janitor diagnosed with numerous mental disorders entered an Osaka elementary school and began stabbing children and teachers. He ultimately killed eight children and seriously wounded another 13 before he could be stopped. The crime reportedly took place in only ten minutes.

A Chinese man stabbed eight children to death as they were waiting for their parents outside an elementary school in March 2010. Elsewhere in China the following month, a man broke into a primary school and stabbed 18 students and a teacher. The very next day, the nation mourned when a man locked himself inside a kindergarten class with a knife and committed what was dubbed a copycat crime. Four more children died that day, and another 28 were wounded, including five left in critical condition.

In fact, just hours before Adam Lanza broke in to Sandy Hook School in Newtown, Connecticut and opened fire, another man walked into a Chinese elementary school armed with a kitchen knife and stabbed 23 children, reportedly because he was “psychologically affected” by the Mayan calendar predicting the end of the world. Reports claim some of these children were found to have had their ears and fingers cut off. This terrible scene is starting to become a common occurrence.

Knives are useful tools for many things, but the UK has banned carrying a knife in public “without good reason” unless the blade is three inches long or less. UK hospitals are not required to report knife-related crimes like gun crimes there, so there is no official reliable data on them. Still, should we ban knives here too, just in case?

While the Connecticut massacre is horrible, it is not the worst school massacre in American history. In 1927, a man decided to bomb a school in Bath Township, Michigan, ultimately killing 38 elementary children before killing himself in the final of three explosions. In his insanity, the man was able to murder nearly 40 children at a school with a single weapon, no gun involved. Nearly 170 children died in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, as the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building included an onsite daycare, again, no gun involved.

Hands are used to set incendiary devices. Should hands be banned?

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, drowning is the leading cause of death for children under the age of four and the second-leading cause for children between ages one and 14. Water kills lots of children every year. Should we ban water?

More people get fat with the aid of a fork and spoon than any other object, and obesity has been found to cause detrimental health effects that can lead to death. Should we ban eating utensils? After all, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who has now launched a campaign against guns, has already banned large sugary drinks.

The National Safety Council reports that more people die of intentional self-harm each year than either auto accidents or assault. Should we ban ourselves?

Gun control has been shown to increase crime. Not to make light of the Connecticut tragedy, but where does it end?

The Transportation and Security Administration‘s (TSA) business is groping Americans and treating us like criminals. We are guilty until proven innocent every time we want to fly, even though the agency has never stopped a single terrorist. Harrowing stories of the TSA abusing people at the airport flood the news all the time. Is this illusion of safety keeping us safe?

Our criminal government is armed to the teeth. Banning guns will mean criminals and the criminal government will be the only ones left to have them. Banning guns will definitely infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear them.

But if we are going to ban firearms, here’s another statistic: our president’s off-the-record drone strikes have killed over 170 children in Pakistan alone. Can we ban drones? (Can we ban Obama, too?)

If a psychologically unwound person snaps and decides to harm helpless children in mass, they target a school for obvious reasons. America’s schools are already gun-free zones, a fact that has not kept mass shootings from occurring there. Criminals are criminals because they do not abide by society’s laws. In many cases, a lot of planning goes into these mass killings. Gun or no gun, these people are not deterred from carrying out such random horrible acts.

A 2006 Harvard study titled, “Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?” exhaustively reviewed American and European firearm laws and found no correlation between gun ownership and violent gun crimes. Instead, evidence showed that murders and suicides were usually based upon social, economic, and cultural factors regardless of weapon availability. Data also showed that the nine European nations with the most private gun owners had three times fewer murders than the nine nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership.

As for the blatant anti-gun agenda now being foisted upon us on nearly every news channel in the wake of the Sandy Hook School shooting, none of it is about keeping our children safe. It’s ultimately about taking away our rights and the government maintaining its power and control over the people.

Like Rahm Emanuel said: “Never let a good crisis go to waste.”

I watched the NRA's news conference today. I have not had time to process it yet (I'm busy).

For the past approx 20 years I have been horrified by video games that I have seen (not played) at a bowling alley, TV commercials, and in print advertising. They have progressively offended me over two decades.

During the NRA news conference there was a reference to a video game (think he said it is an online game) called "Kindergarten Killer" (or something like that) accompanied by a short video. Once again I was horrified. If I have time over the next few days I want to at least read about it (probably do not want to watch it). If it is as described I can only say it makes me want to puke.

Jason, with 4 1/2 times the population, and half that population in the age range that routinely is responsible for the bulk of murders, China had within a whisper of the same number of murders that USA did according to latest figures. that's a murder rate 20% of ours.
In a country with effectively invisble mental health care, in the middle of unprecedented cultural change and tumult---

And they have their gangs and Triads and they have a Southern Border much like our own; a gateway of smuggling drugs and contraband from basically lawless countries which accounts for a shit ton of the crime and murders..

Whoever wrote that is stretching it by a factor of 500% to begin to suggest " is starting to become a common occurrence. "
But as they say, don't let facts and numbers spoil a pointless rant.

But again, all this bullshit, what does it have to do with why USA society produces so many more insane people? a portion of which turn violent and a portion of them become mass murders far far out of proportion to any other civilised society in the world..

I said civilised., what we are supposed top be.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Jason, with 4 1/2 times the population, and half that population in the age range that routinely is responsible for the bulk of murders, China had within a whisper of the same number of murders that USA did according to latest figures. that's a murder rate 20% of ours.
In a country with effectively invisble mental health care, in the middle of unprecedented cultural change and tumult---

And they have their gangs and Triads and they have a Southern Border much like our own; a gateway of smuggling drugs and contraband from basically lawless countries which accounts for a shit ton of the crime and murders..

Whoever wrote that is stretching it by a factor of 500% to begin to suggest " is starting to become a common occurrence. "
But as they say, don't let facts and numbers spoil a pointless rant.

But again, all this bullshit, what does it have to do with why USA society produces so many more insane people? a portion of which turn violent and a portion of them become mass murders far far out of proportion to any other civilised society in the world..

I said civilised., what we are supposed top be.

Do we coddle kids too much? Everyone is a first place winner nowadays, except they aren't. Then, when little Timmy runs into that reality of life and he didn't get that super paying job, that nice house, the pretty, smart, well rounded girl, he acts out. It can take on inwardly destructive behavior like alcoholism, hard core drugs, suicide, or it can be expressed outwardly like what happened last Friday.

---

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

... I see what you did there.... <.< lol

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Quote
Vorpal_Rally

Quote
john vanlandingham
Jason, with 4 1/2 times the population, and half that population in the age range that routinely is responsible for the bulk of murders, China had within a whisper of the same number of murders that USA did according to latest figures. that's a murder rate 20% of ours.
In a country with effectively invisble mental health care, in the middle of unprecedented cultural change and tumult---

And they have their gangs and Triads and they have a Southern Border much like our own; a gateway of smuggling drugs and contraband from basically lawless countries which accounts for a shit ton of the crime and murders..

Whoever wrote that is stretching it by a factor of 500% to begin to suggest " is starting to become a common occurrence. "
But as they say, don't let facts and numbers spoil a pointless rant.

But again, all this bullshit, what does it have to do with why USA society produces so many more insane people? a portion of which turn violent and a portion of them become mass murders far far out of proportion to any other civilised society in the world..

I said civilised., what we are supposed top be.

Do we coddle kids too much? Everyone is a first place winner nowadays, except they aren't. Then, when little Timmy runs into that reality of life and he didn't get that super paying job, that nice house, the pretty, smart, well rounded girl, he acts out. It can take on inwardly destructive behavior like alcoholism, hard core drugs, suicide, or it can be expressed outwardly like what happened last Friday.

I do think that is part of it. As a nation one thing that marks us accross nearly all divisons of race, age, gender, and politics is the abstract way they people talk: always "ideally" or "theoretically" or "should be".....
So ideally all of our kids we love 'em to death and we all know they're special, and they are....but that get carried to absurd degrees like "my Billy should ....." even if he's a rolly poly schlubloid, you can't say when he's up to bat :You're out! cause he'll get a complex...The rules say 3 strikes, but now they keep pitchin until Billy manages to hit the ball..

But we do that with ideas and facts too...we dismiss everything somebody says that doesn't fit your "should be like dis" piccie of the world just like little Adam did "You post some BS without any facts to back it up"

And the evil fascist-like sorts always characterize anything anybody says to counter their raving as a "rant" and "you're angry". We've seen that here already several times by a few guys who if you know them in real life are horrribly uneducated and near totally ignorant of nearly anything but their own belches and burps which pass for opinion.

The abstractness of thinking---and it follows in dialog---leads to this fixation with ideas of "rights" as in "you're full of shit, that's just your opinion and everybody has a RIGHT to their own opinion, nobody is going to tell me what to do (think)"

I think it was good ol' barney Franks from the Commonwealth of Massivetwoshits who said "Every has a right to the own opinion but they don't have a right to their own facts".

Since "evertything" becomes "just your opinion" and everybody has a RIGHT to their own opinion,nobody needs to ever really consider anybody else' opinion...
And 88% of out countrymen think astrology has merit
5?% think the eath is 6438 years old
55% of Republigoon voters still think Obama is a Muslim Kenyan Nazi Communist AND that Saddam Husein was behind the Al Quida 9/11 attacks...


And that the "Founders" would be just hunky dory with todays hyper-violent societ where people have 6000 rounds of 7.62mm surplus Rooskie military cartridges at home..

And nothing will change their mind....

Notice how it went when one crazy asked "You recall why there's all these loonies on the streets?".
He got a clear answer including a reminder that he could no possibly "recall" things prior to his birth, and detail factual answer that it was at least in California, a radical Right wing Governor who in an "executive" deal, cut state funding, and later did the same when the country foolishly believed his pablum and lies and elected him President.

The response was not "Oh shit, didn't know that"...no concession, just anger and screaming.....like a spoiled, immature adolescent.
Which is worrisome when you know the person runs around carry weapons which he has bragged about "shoving it up the nose of some fuckin homeless nigger who was looking in my dumpster".
Not going to mention any names.

That's madness, and it's madness that is very common here in USA.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Actually here, although there ARE quite a lot of AK variants in use, I would bet that there are more AR owners with 5.56mm stockpiles, then 7.62x39mm (ak), and THEN 7.62x51mm Nato (common battle rifles [as opposed to "assault" rifles]).

(side note, AK 74's now use a 5.45x39mm round)


EDIT: Whoops, used the soviet sniper round first, my bad.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2012 08:07PM by Dazed_Driver.

Quote
Dazed_Driver
Actually here, although there ARE quite a lot of AK variants in use, I would bet that there are more AR owners with 5.56mm stockpiles, then 7.62x39mm (ak), and THEN 7.62x51mm Nato (common battle rifles [as opposed to "assault" rifles]).

(side note, AK 74's now use a 5.45x39mm round)


EDIT: Whoops, used the soviet sniper round first, my bad.

It wouldn't be a very good bet because the AR is spec'd to use .223 Cal.

The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.

Quote
RWD4ME

It wouldn't be a very good bet because the AR is spec'd to use .223 Cal.

The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.

Not necessarily, depends a lot on manufacture, you can't go by round, the AR platform has been adapted to so many different rounds. And the specifics of the round don't really matter in this debate.

---

Less talk. More rally.

It's pointless to argue. We all have our opinions, and we're all stuck on them.


Fact of the matter is, guns are never going away, no matter what legislation is introduced. 1998-1999 were the two worst years for school shootings, and guess what? That was smack dab in the middle of the 94-04 ban that 'did away with' AR's and similar guns.

I'm in Chicago, home of some of the strictest gun legislation in the country. Guess what? It doesn't work. It disarms good, law-abiding citizens and allows criminals to act more recklessly and boldly.


I'll always own guns. I intend on having a fair chance at defending myself and any other good, innocent people around me. That's all there is to it.

"Prohibition has made nothing but trouble." - Al Capone