Let's get political. Gun Debate!

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RWD4ME

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Dazed_Driver
Actually here, although there ARE quite a lot of AK variants in use, I would bet that there are more AR owners with 5.56mm stockpiles, then 7.62x39mm (ak), and THEN 7.62x51mm Nato (common battle rifles [as opposed to "assault" rifles]).

(side note, AK 74's now use a 5.45x39mm round)


EDIT: Whoops, used the soviet sniper round first, my bad.

It wouldn't be a very good bet because the AR is spec'd to use .223 Cal.

The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.

Ok, correct, but either way, lol.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Since prohibition doesn't work, how bout trying something else taht at least might? I don't have a problem with a fewday waiting period. It won't help wtih stolen guns, but someone who needs to rush right out right now and buy one, well, I don't think I completely trust their motives.
Do we really need video games like "kindergarten killer"? Seems a bit like shouting fire in a movie theater. I think training classes are a good idea. I don't know that making them mandatory is a good idea or not. I spect they'd get used to blanket deny, in some areas.
Gun free zones are deadly. Eliminate them, unless you are able to set up detectors like you have in courthouses.
The FDA needs to take a real hard look at the adderols and xanaxes and all the other shit getting shoveled into gen Y that are the common denominator in damn near all of the recent atrocities.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

Ya, any drug that has side effects that include 'thoughts of suicide' is a problem huh? Modern doctors like to treat symptoms and no causes.. suits the big Pharma just fine.

Remember there is a difference between AR meaning semi automatic rifle that could be a hunting rifle, and AR meaning assault rifle.

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john vanlandingham
Jason, with 4 1/2 times the population, and half that population in the age range that routinely is responsible for the bulk of murders, China had within a whisper of the same number of murders that USA did according to latest figures. that's a murder rate 20% of ours.
In a country with effectively invisble mental health care, in the middle of unprecedented cultural change and tumult---

And they have their gangs and Triads and they have a Southern Border much like our own; a gateway of smuggling drugs and contraband from basically lawless countries which accounts for a shit ton of the crime and murders..

Whoever wrote that is stretching it by a factor of 500% to begin to suggest " is starting to become a common occurrence. "
But as they say, don't let facts and numbers spoil a pointless rant.

But again, all this bullshit, what does it have to do with why USA society produces so many more insane people? a portion of which turn violent and a portion of them become mass murders far far out of proportion to any other civilised society in the world..

I said civilised., what we are supposed top be.

In all fairness I don't think you can make a blanket comparrison of homicide rates in China to that of the US.

When I think of an event where US Government forces killed it's civilians who were protesting, I think of Kent State in 1969 where 4 protesters were shot and died.

When I think of an event where the Chinese Government forces killed it's civilians who were protesting I think of Tiananmen square where according to the Chinese Red Cross 2600 people were shot and died. According to the Chinese Government 241 were shot and died.

I'm not sure if you remember, but the rounds the Chinese military used were full metal jackets. Which basically would go through multiple people before fragmenting.

Comparring homicide rates of the two countries is a little skewed in my opinion because in one the majority of the civilian polulation "perhaps" fears it's Government less than it does in the other.

Both countires have come very far since both Kent State and Tiananmen square, but as we all know... present day perspectives and events can often be dictated by history.

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RWD4ME

Comparring homicide rates of the two countries is a little skewed in my opinion because in one the majority of the civilian population "perhaps" fears it's Government less than it does in the other.

Both countries have come very far since both Kent State and Tiananmen square, but as we all know... present day perspectives and events can often be dictated by history.

You might be right, one is aging, fat mostly, complacent, shockingly unaware of the world, the other has an intense growing economy, with amazing dynamic activity every where you look, a hunger for knowledge, works long hours as a matter of course--everybody, , live in far denser enviroment, denser traffic,and is searching for the "right" way forward;

while there other wrestles over and over and over for 40-45 years on the same problems: violence on a widespread scale---reproductive rights aka and the desire to insert the Gubbyment where it doesn't belong, religions unceasing efforts to make USA into a atavistic theocracy, counterbalancing limitless greed vs making it legal for 1/2 of 1% to own everything and all the money..

So.....
Not sure whatcher mean there? Which one you imagine fears its Government more? I know which one has a large vocal segment that talks a lot about
"when the shit hits the fan I'm going be ....blah blah blah blam blam blam"
But elaborate.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

One killed near 3000 of its subjects for protesting repression and the other hasn't yet, at least not all at once. Rah Rah sis boom bah.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

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Jay
One killed near 3000 of its subjects for protesting repression and the other hasn't yet, at least not all at once. Rah Rah sis boom bah.

Then why are so many Americans always armed to the teeth and repeat crap about "the founding fathers wanted an armed citizenry so the government would be afraid of the people?"

And while this spins away from the question of WHY USA creates more murders per unit and so many more mass murders, can you say how many years long Revolutions china had last Century?
And how many in the 1800s?
Do you have any idea how many dies in the first major revolt in the 1800s?

Don't google! I din't say how good are ya at lookin' up!

Think about those revolts and revolution and how many millions died, and then remember the last one ended in human memory, think what value in placed in China on maintaining safety and order first and foremost.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Gubymint sticking it's head where it doesn't belong. Hmmmm. How about one child per couple? How has that worked out? I understand there are millions of girls that get the short end of that stick (since a male child is so clearly desired).

We can and should learn from all societies. China has a lot to teach us. But let's not pretend here.. the place sure aint perfect. I'd much rather be here and take my chances with the guns. I like my odds. Not to say that there isn't a population problem that China is basically the first to really see, just saying that, as you would expect, 'big gov' doesn't have a good solution.

JV, I will agree that the basic problem is NOT guns. We probably all basically agree that no one NEEDS 30 rounds in a clip. But I think most of us also understand that we *should* be able to play nice even when those are available. The question is why is this 'playing nice' more of a problem for us than so many others? Those with access to guns, and those without?

Good question, good debate, except for the occasional personal attacks, but it's destined to go unanswered, and unsolved either here or in DC.

Stand by for more fruitless money wasting legislation and more killing. I think we've chosen our path, and I think it will take a major hardship that covers the country and forces us to give up a lot of modern convenience, and forces us to come together as communities for us to steer a different course.

Last time I looked out the window the government here is not military, it is citizen run. Befuddled, mis-quided,contrary, a wee bit corrupt on ocassion, but still citizen run. I don't fear our government or military or my neighbor and friend the state trooper. I doubt any of them fear me. I can write on this board without fear of any reprisals or knocks on the door in the middle of the night. Feel free to move to a communist country , I'll stay here and suffer with the massive problems we have...

I'm sure the extended clips are going away. I think there will be some sort of limit on ammo bought in a certain period. Gun shows will have some more regulations to deal with. There are some relatively painless 'corrections' we can make that will certainly bother some people terribly but still allow the overwhelming majority to continue on as we do every day.

The AR platform , I don't know what will happen there. It is a much maligned gun right now. It is perhaps too prevalent for its own good. Many of them seem to jamb , dirt, ammo, construction or heat, I don't know but glad it has happened a few times. The AK is a much deadlier weapon in urban settings. They aren't notorius for jambing, fire a larger round, about 100,000,000 made world wide.

I've made it 60 years, a few bloodly knuckles along the way, stitches in a lip once, no big deal. No shots fired in anger or defense. If things go bump in the night the last thing I would reach for is the AR. I have had to go outside and check on the shop a couple times and the 9mm or 357 went with me. The key to this is a couple things. In a house in the dark, walls, halls and doors are the enemy of a long gun. If the barrel proceeds you it can be grabbed, may be past a target, any number of things. Personal defense should be considered (to me) 30ish feet? Where I can see without my glasses, where danger is imminent and not percieved. Personal defense for most people in our society isn't 400yds out. There are plenty of good options for long range defense without an AR. So even if I had to surrender my AR I would still be the grumpy old fart I am, house would still be secure.

Madness is here tho...the local gun store is out of ARs..people have brought some into the store to sell and they never made it behind the counter, sold on the floor to some else. One guy witnessed an HK variant bought new in Tacoma for 2k ish and sold in the parking lot for close to 5k. Lotta money changing hands.

Well John, I was gonna go and argue your assertions, but then you said this:
"Think about those revolts and revolution and how many millions died, and then remember the last one ended in human memory, think what value in placed in China on maintaining safety and order first and foremost."
You just blamed the victims of the worst State sponsored mass killing in recent memory. You came right out and said that a state's interest in "maintaining safety and order" is sufficient justification to slaughter thousands of people. Well shit, they were carving statues of liberty outta styrafoam for gods sake, we can't have that! When I take this statement, and the other one you wrote in this thread, you know, the one where you want to make it so the cops can watch for anyone with a hi cap magazine in their possession, and then "shoot the fucker on sight", and I can plainly see what your position is. You hate mass murder unless the State is doing it. So there is no point in discussing this with you whatsoever. Your mindset is too far away from mine.

"In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

"In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

"Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

"China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

"Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

"Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

"Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."

Rah Rah. And you want to bring that here?


Those fucking Finns. Stalin came to them demanding half thier territory so he could maintain safety and order and they had the nerve to tell him to fuck off. Bastards. If only their government had disarmed their people, poor old uncle Joe wouldn't have had any trouble at all with Finland.
Someone else here said they were sad cuz of me. Look over that list. That's what makes me sad. Gun control has outright killed so many people it makes me sick to think about it and now a depressing number of people want to charge down that same road here. That makes me sad.
I don't have the answers to our problems but I know what doesn't work. I'm done here.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

Hey Gene.... I gotta partially disagree with you on this.

I've been shooting since I was around 10 or so. I'm getting close to 60 and have wanted an AR for about 4 decades. Finally bought one this summer (not a genuine AR, because there is a stupid AR ban here in Connecticut).

I sold my Dillon pistol cartridge only reloader, and purchased Dillon XL650 to reload both pistol and rifle ammunition (been a reloader off and on for almost 20 years).

Anyway......

I primarily shoot .22LR through it (primarily paper targets). Then I follow it with a round or two of 5.56. If I was shooting 3 gun competitions it would be different.

I don't hunt. So I don't need a 308, or anything like that. I don't like killing things. I buy my meat already pre-killed by someone else. Have nothing against hunting. Actually wish they would allow more hunting, because we are overrun with deer here. Lyme disease, car smash ups, etc. My wife (who drives slow) hit a deer 2 or 3 years ago, and I've seen a several of them hit on my road within 200 feet of my house.

Yeah, if something goes bump in the night (very rare) I grab a handgun and a flashlight and a phone.

But........

We also have bear issues in CT (more and more and more). I have a screen door that a bear could walk through in a heartbeat. If it happens hopefully making lots of noise will make it run back outside, then I will call animal control (at LEAST 30 minutes for them to get here.... sometimes hours). If it is threatening my life in my house I will use my rifle and as many rounds as it takes to stop it (be that 1 or 30).

Also, if an animal is acting rabid (rare, but I have experienced it once) I would rather be able to shoot it from a distance than have to get close.

I don't want to buy a shotgun, because I can't afford to shoot skeet, trap, etc. And a home defense short shotgun is nothing I can use for fun.

The AR is a fun gun to shoot. It is NOT just a people killer.

Every gun (musket, pistol, rifle, shotgun to the latest whatever) was originally designed to kill people. That doesn't mean responsible law abiding people should not be allowed to have them.

Generalizing here: I can't afford a Ferrari, but if I could I wouldn't drive it 200 mph on public roads. The fact it can go 200 mph doesn't mean a responsible person would drive it that fast. I have seen Youtube videos of idiots driving like freeking maniacs on public highways (especially crowded roads). Should we ban those sociopath's cars, or should we lock up the people that drive like that?

Jay I did not "blame the victims" at all. Flat wrong. I asked you a couple of questions about the last 2 centuries of internal Chinese history.
You ignored those, didn't answer at all.
If you had answered you don't know how many revolutions there was in the last 2 centuries and how many died in the first one I would have told you and then in light of this you might gain a insight into way all central governments feel it is their duty to suppress even incipient revolts...
Our Government has also suppressed revolt with deadly force repeatedly.

One slight difference is our Government has suppressed, harrassed, procecute dissent which is legal, in violation of its own laws...
The Tienaman Square dissenters were in violation of then current law, and they did what they did knowing that it was illegal, and knowing what the very likely outcome would be...and was. They themselves have said so in books and interviews in the last 15 years.

I don't know how many Chinese you have know well enough to ask them straight out what they feel about the party--which is the government---but I know lots of Chinese from teens to old soldiers who fought from the 30s thru the mid 60s. I have asked straight out "do you fear the Central Government in Beijing?" None has answer yes. A few who have lived and worked away say maybe they should be a little quicker on reforms, and openess...
But security and order are ideas that are much more important to most when they all know their history, that is what they say.
So no I'm not blaming the victims..I admired and wished them all success when it was going on, I was hopeful for them. They were optimists as I am an optimist and they were willing to risk their lives to try and force a change in the whole society---far more admirable than the typical "I haz my guns I'm retreating to my fortress, fuck every else" which is typical here..
Some say they succeeded, for its a far different country now than then...

Its far quicker and far easier and relaxed when entering China than when I--a US Citizen--leave or enter my own country here at the Airport where every fat slob in uniform is carrying a pistol on their hip. there, not a gun to be seen....even local cops are not routinely armed...unless its something unusual, then they take their guns.

I'm not idealizing either place, just saying what I see and how the atmosphere feels.


But you didn't answer, dialog ceases at the point. Without back and forth questions don't get answered.

Wanna try again?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Jay



Those fucking Finns. Stalin came to them demanding half thier territory so he could maintain safety and order and they had the nerve to tell him to fuck off. Bastards. If only their government had disarmed their people, poor old uncle Joe wouldn't have had any trouble at all with Finland.
Someone else here said they were sad cuz of me. Look over that list. That's what makes me sad. Gun control has outright killed so many people it makes me sick to think about it and now a depressing number of people want to charge down that same road here. That makes me sad.
I don't have the answers to our problems but I know what doesn't work. I'm done here.

You know the history of Sweden and Finland and the wars they fought from 1056 to 1809 against Russia? And how after the last war which sweden lost all of Finland and the island of Ã…land was ceded and became a Grand Duchy within the Russian empire? And since it was Russian the fact that the administive procivial border was roughly 12 miles, 20 km from downtown Leningrad?
You familiar with the course of the Finnish Civil War which broke out after the October Revolution?
And who aided the Swedish speaking minority which was the laws the police and the officer corp of the military as well as the owners of most of the land---they weren't "the 1%", they were "the 6-7%".....

It's importnat to know this shit when bring up things. then you would say "Stalin demanded half their territory" for "safety and order".

We have been sorta discussing domestic, individual security, not national integrity or sovereignty...

The upper classes in Finland, Swedes had recieved "help" to the tune of 30-35000 crank German troops in the Civil War, with that, despite being a tiny majority, they were able to beat the mass of ordinary Finns who wanted fair pay and normal civil rights--which as little better than serfs--the bulk were tenant farmers which virtually no rights.
naturally the upper classes were extremely grateful to Germany--and in the next 20 years maintained close contacts with Germany even after the Nazis came to power. They weren't alloes but they were friendly----since the Great Democracies ignored Finland..
As the inevitable war approached, the Soviets felt a little uneasy having a country of dubious friendship with borders within range of the field artillery of that neighbor--that is perfectly understandable..And why the Finns were in negotiations with the Soviets about the border...

Yes the Soviets attacked, that was bad. And they paid a enormous price, but that quick war ended in a negotiated end.

But one thing you can say good out of that Winter War , the Finns taught the Red Army how to fight well, and when the time came, the Soviets could stop the Germans in less than 6 months ( 22 Jun 41 invasion, stopped before Christmas 1941) ...and that was the beginning of the end for the Nazis..

And that's why we speak English today (well some of us).

And the Soviets were never asking for more than 20% the huge bulk of it nearly empty swampy soggy Karelia---population less than 2 per sq/km..
In the end they got that and Lahti, too, Finland's second largest industrial city..

Maybe it would have been better to cede the territory aber vielicht anders auch, weisst du, junge?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, why not show figures from a country that's at least similar to ours? Similar population, similar government type, etc.

You can't really compare an "officially atheist" communist country with ~4.5 TIMES the population of ours.

I do however recognize that it's hard to do so, as India is second (after China) at 1.2 BILLION, and we're third at 315 MILLION or so.

China is such a completely different culture that its pretty impossible to accurately compare something like this to them. (yes, I used a story about a Chinese man with a knife... that was to prove a point about how knifes can inflict injuries on multiple targets... not WHY it happened, or why it wasn't worse.. it was just a convenient article linked from an article about the shooting)


This is a constructive post. Respond the same.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

I have to go make some 50mm Bilstiens into inserts. You do a little rearch to generally Western Europe, then Canada and then zero in on Metro Vancouver region which is very close in age, ethnic mix, diet, weather everything...
Then you tell us..

and you're right, hard comparison. living conditions on average in China are all slanted in the direction that would HERE be considered aggravating circmstances, and so we'd expect to see their RATE as far far higher and its lower, more intense life and work go go go in everything but the consumption of alky and drugs which is far higher hear---but a fraction of Western Europe..

You go research and report back.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.