Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
Posted by Anders Green
fiasco Andrew Steere Junior Moderator Location: South Central Nude Hamster Join Date: 12/29/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 2,008 Rally Car: too rich for my blood, share a LeMons car |
Better variety of machinery than I expected in this video...I think the E36 is probably becoming the 240 of the 20teens because all the 316d's (or whatever the cheap ones were) are fully depreciated and easily made into evil cars, much like the Ovlov 240's were 15 years ago.
Andrew Steere Lyndeborough, NH KB1PJY |
GravelSpeed Clint Fast Ultra Moderator Location: Fletcher, VT Join Date: 02/09/2015 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 12 Rally Car: Subaru WRX STI / Ford Fiesta R2 |
John, I'm not sure what you're comparing in your example here:
The DMack Fiesta Trophy cars are R2, so comparing an R2 car finishing time to an R4 car will show some disparity. Will and Alex finished Germany in 4th in the Fiesta Trophy. All things considered, (first time on real tarmac, first time at that rally, etc, etc) I think that is a result to be proud of and something to build from. Will has had some top 4 / 5 ( in DFT) stage times at previous events and he will put it all together soon. To say he is bottom of the pile and outgunned by everyone is not correct. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2015 09:12PM by GravelSpeed. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Mod Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Its just a general point--an answer to what I call the Little Frogs in the Bottom of the Well Looking up. This many years thread is a long poke at the tendency of everybody to believe some miracle single thing is out there which will alter the steady 25 year decline into utter irrelevance and even deeper obscurity that US rally--and to a degree Canajian rally also has been in.. When I started in 30 years ago there were 8-9 events in WA per year...Oregon had 1....Ohio had a series I dunno 6-8...Entry lists had high 30s to mid 40s and out East where 70% of US population is saw sometime 65 entries---entries which cost late entry $55... There were a big variety of cars, a variety of people. it was good cheap fun...and longer SS distances usually ... A real challenge. Then the country was hit with the S&L scandles, the Wall Street crash of 87, credit was harder and suddenly in late 80s entries plummeted..Some nationals getting 12-13 entries--and entries began to rise.. And so there began the search for "the next big things that'll SAVE US rally" Eventually by sheer force of repetition it was 'decided" that TV and new expensive cars was the solution---and everything was done to convert rally to a made-for-TV-extravaganza ...and like everything else in America it was done on barroed or free money.. And where there's lots of money being thrown around, there's always hangers on and scavengers and 'apologists".. And one strand is "WOW Golly Jeeze 'we" are so fast now". And I say, backed by data collected here a long while ago and recently that no 'we" aren't any faster in aggregate than long ago...and the cost and effort to apprear up-to-date and 'with it' maybe one big factor in Andre's sobering statistic---of all drivers entering an event between 2000 and 2014 or whatever it was 43% have done 3 rallies and disappeared...27% one event and poof! The Return on Investment is not in balance with the dollar to laugh ratio.. So when people go spend massive amounts of money for nothing ( Check nice stage by satge results here http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=19127&s=91870&t=ADAC-Rallye-Deutschland-2015 and you'll see that on a wide fast easy event within class results are er um "modest" . And according to the results they're in RC4 cars: SS1: 73. flag 132 Herrmann Achim - Hoff Otmar BMW 120 Diesel RC2 12:14.4 +4:16.0 +1:25.0 72.7 17.3 74. flag 112 Hudson Will - Gelsomino Alessandro Ford Fiesta R2T RC4 17:15.5 +9:17.1 +5:01.1 51.6 And RC$: R2B 1400cc to 1600cc Naturally aspirated Petrol 1030 kg Two-wheel drive 2500 per year Ford Fiesta R2[7] R2C 1600cc to 2000cc Naturally aspirated Petrol 1080 kg Two-wheel drive 2500 per year Ford Fiesta R2[ 37.5 Says R4 after the car beside what is it?: 1.0 Fox EcoBoost 998cc VCT; 3 cylinders in line; DOHC; 12 valves; alloy cylinder head; variable cam timing. Life Racing engine control unit, digital dash display and power management systems. Fiesta R2 Power: 180 PS @ 6,500 rpm. Torque: 250 Nm @ 3,500 rpm. Transmission: Five speed sequential gearbox developed by Sadev with plated limited slip differential and uprated driveshafts. Suspension: Reiger adjustable dampers with Eibach springs, spherical jointed top mounts front and rear. Front dampers adjustable for high speed / low speed bump and rebound. Modified rear beam with uprated mounts. 2-bolt clamped front upright. Brakes: Gravel: Front: 285 mm ventilated discs with four piston Alcon competition calipers. Asphalt: Front: 310 mm ventilated discs with four piston Alcon competition calipers. Rear: 280 mm Alcon ventilated discs with single piston calipers. Hydraulic handbrake. Steering: Electric power-assisted steering. Wheels: Gravel: OZ 6"x15" with 175/70R15 DMACK tyres. Asphalt: OZ 6.5"x16" with 195/50R16 DMACK tyres. Dimensions: Length: 3953mm Width: 1722mm Height: 1481mm Wheelbase: 2490mm Weight: 1030kg That's a pretty good car.... Go stage by stage at that site....Not just this event--scary fast asfalt but others Check Crazy Leo's results.. They are not very good, In this on SS results he was near last in the little group and over in the gropup massively behind the guys in front--only beating guys who had major blunders/offs . Just look at the gapon this one: http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=19127&s=91885&sct=513&t=ADAC-Rallye-Deutschland-2015
19m30 behind the leader overall at that point and and 16m11s behind the next guy is not something to be proud of.....considering they were in the exact same car, same tires same evertything. And your cheering is what baffles me and I think somehow contributes to this fantasy land we have here which I think potential newcomers can see and smell.. Nobody likes bullshit... They see speeded up local stuff which is still slow-looking--then they see something in real life locally and they go wait! This aint the most mind boggling un-believeably awesome thing EVAR!" That's why i say we've tried the "glorification' and awe-ing people with this sport.. And entries and events and volunteers keep declining.. We gotta try maybe identification--the gawd damn I could do something like that" deal.. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Anders Green Anders Green Infallible Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
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NoCoast Grant Hughes Infallible Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
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ElectroTech Steve Wheeler Infallible Moderator Location: Fork Lake, Alberta Join Date: 06/09/2015 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: 1992 Golf |
I'd say for the sport to grow, or even fill the old shoes there needs to be a single set of rules, on both sides of the border. Teams should get volunteer points, meaning a team can be made up of say 8 people max and get points towards standings based on helping run rallies, which should also help lower entry fees. The cost of safety equipment is the single biggest investment and should be where the sanctioning body focuses its efforts in trying to gain entries. The process of getting a car ready for stage is daunting, there needs to be some regional designate cage builder system whereby there will be no question, uncertainty or refusal on tech inspection. This crazy idea that a cage costs $3.5-5k+ to build is the number one thing holding the sport back. The problem is that with lack of growth comes lack of experience and foresight, there's 10 identical cars with 10 different cages, always fully custom, if those 10 cars had the same cage costs would plummet. The technology is out there, CNC bending machines, spatial scanners and software to make it so a cage can be fabbed, car scanned and the machine spits out the tubing ready to go (headers have been built this way for a long time) for the next dozen. Make it so people can select from a dozen cars or so, and have it caged for say $2k. If you want and can afford to go full custom go ahead, but if you want to get into the sport here's your in.
Power means nothing if you cannot control it! |
ElectroTech Steve Wheeler Infallible Moderator Location: Fork Lake, Alberta Join Date: 06/09/2015 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: 1992 Golf |
I see the 43% after 3 event attrition, I think the other 57% start rally parts supply businesses to support their habit but in many cases fail to see that their customer base is so small due largely in fact that their own prices make it prohibitive.
Power means nothing if you cannot control it! |
Josh Wimpey Josh Wimpey Junior Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
If you are worried about 3.5k vs 2k for a cage in a sport where even a low powered car modestly driven will eat $800-$1000 in tires per weekend, you are thinking about things wrong....
____________________________________________________________- One. Class -- 2WD www.quantumrallysport.com http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf |
Josh Wimpey Josh Wimpey Junior Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
BTW, Will still beat francois Delacour in his Porsche :-)
____________________________________________________________- One. Class -- 2WD www.quantumrallysport.com http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf |
hoche Michel Hoche-Mong Elite Moderator Location: Campbell, CA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,156 Rally Car: Golf, Golf, RX-3 |
I wouldn't ordinarily post this to a public website, especially this one, but since they posted on Facebook I guess they don't mind talking about it, and it's not particularly a secret. Saturday at Mendocino, they were running second O/A and put in a smoking fast time on the last stage of the day to win the event. Alas, a few minutes after posting that, we calculated the roadpoints and found that they had checked in early at a control. This cost them the win and put them back in second place. We sent the CRO around to find Chris and Lori and tell them, and apparently Chris got angry. I didn't talk to Chris after that, but several minutes later they'd loaded up the car on the trailer and left the service area at excessive speed. Several people, including myself, the steward (Paula), and about fifteen competitors and staff observed this. We thought this was undesirable behavior and were trying to decide what to do about it. There's no straight up "speeding in service" penalty listed, so we thought maybe an unsportsmanlike would be the right thing. We ended up contacting RA officials (who were all at NEFR) about it, and got a reply back saying that they'd done something at 100AW earlier in the year and that between that and this, RA was going to yank their licenses for a year. No one here wanted that to happen, so Paula asked if she could schedule a meeting with Chris and Lori and discuss it with them. We got a reply saying yes, and if they understood that they were skating on thin ice and could reign it in, RA would be willing to just go with a fine and a probationary period. So at the end of Sunday, we sent our CRO over to meet them at the final MTC and tell them that the steward wanted to have a meeting with them. Again, Chris got angry, this time directly at our CRO, and that no, they wouldn't go to a meeting - they had to leave to go back to Colorado. At this point, I was across the parking lot trying to get things sorted out for the champagne spray and awards, and when the CRO came back to tell me this, I realized that if they skipped the meeting they were going to get their licenses yanked, so I hopped in my car and drove across town to where the O'Driscolls were loading up on their trailer. I personally pleaded with them to come to the meeting, and got the same "we have to leave" excuse, but then I pointed out that we'd finished the rally an hour early so they had a little extra time. Finally they agreed to come. I did not want to be in that meeting, but got pulled in. I am not going to go over the details, but there was absolutely no ownership taken. In their minds, every issue was someone else's fault. I heard some pretty strange things: there's a Rally-America conspiracy against them because they don't like them running against the top guys; you don't have to obey a cop blocking the road at an event because he's just another rally worker; you never tell the driver things like penalties and if you do it's OK for him to get mad at the CRO because you're only supposed to tell that to the co-driver. By end of it, Paula had no choice but to go along with R-A's original decision and pull Chris's license. They left, but before leaving town they clipped their RA license cards to Paula's windshield wipers. Then, when they got home, they filed a PayPal dispute with us (Mendocino Rally) to get their entry fee back, saying we were dishonest and didn't provide the services they'd paid for. I should perhaps note that they finished both days at Mendocino and did quite well and would have been in the champagne spray had they not left. Self-righteous douche canoe |
ElectroTech Steve Wheeler Infallible Moderator Location: Fork Lake, Alberta Join Date: 06/09/2015 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: 1992 Golf |
It's not me I'm doing it anyways, and will get it done right, for the right price. Average Joe wanting to switch from one form of motor sports to this one is gonna be out about $7k by the time they are on the start line, you don't think that limits entries? That's the problem, if there were more people, tires would get cheaper, it's all about quantity, need more people. Period. Power means nothing if you cannot control it! |
EricW Eric Wages Professional Moderator Location: Goose Creek, SC Join Date: 12/09/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 280 Rally Car: 2002 WRX |
#goatstage will save rally!
http://www.gofundme.com/7s28mde4 Seriously. You cheap bastards should contribute a few bucks for a good laugh. |
DaveK Dave Kern Mega Moderator Location: Centennial Join Date: 07/11/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 1,085 Rally Car: Compact M3 & Evo IX |
Take a look at auto-x. Thousands of people playing in parking lots, and blowing $200-400/corner on sticky ho-hos. If they're not getting price breaks....neither will the rally world. Say it with me: THE CAR IS NOT THE EXPENSIVE PART OF RALLYING. THE CAR IS NOT THE EXPENSIVE PART OF RALLYING. THE CAR IS NOT THE EXPENSIVE PART OF RALLYING. Dave |
fiasco Andrew Steere Junior Moderator Location: South Central Nude Hamster Join Date: 12/29/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 2,008 Rally Car: too rich for my blood, share a LeMons car |
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GravelSpeed Clint Fast Ultra Moderator Location: Fletcher, VT Join Date: 02/09/2015 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 12 Rally Car: Subaru WRX STI / Ford Fiesta R2 |
I don't believe there is any single miracle thing out there. It takes a lot of little things going correctly, in the same direction, to have success. Entries go up and go down. There are so many variables as to why this is. The reasons people have for entering the sport are myriad but there are so many other sports that are infinitely more expensive than rally, so the evidence doesn't suggest it is purely an economics problem for why people aren't staying.
I think the fastest guys in the US would represent the country well in any other national championship. Rally is so relatively small here that the gauge of "fast" is skewed, but that doesn't mean that people can't rise to the occasion. Anyone in racing knows that there's nothing like a faster competitor to make you faster, in any discipline. You can cherry pick national championships like Finland or Australia, but I think our quickest guys, after a period of adjustment, are capable of getting on the pace in equal equipment. Maybe Will identifies himself as Finnish? Just because the passport is blue and says USA, doesn't mean you can't identify as Finnish. Countryism is a thing and it needs to stop, tonite. Not serious
Will is not Leo or Chris Duplessis. Whatever others have achieved or not achieved does not reflect on what Will can achieve. Will is already ahead of the game with the people he has around him to manage his program and put him in touch with the right people to go quicker. Will is fortunate to have the budget to put that together but it will help him immensely. Time will tell, but he has a platform to go forward from.
On that stage of 46 km he was off the pace by 1.7 seconds a km. Certainly off the pace, but is that insurmountable, should he put his rally dreams in the trash can over it? I don't think so. Serious question: how quick were you in the very beginning when you moved to Sweden to race motocross? Did you get quicker racing against fast guys?
My encouragement of what he is doing is quite simple; he's doing it, he's not not miles and miles off the pace, he has a good team and he just finished his first event without crashing out in 4th and he has posted top 5 stage times within the DFT. I think, all things considered, that's not bad. Time will tell if he can go quicker and rise to the occasion but it's far too early to write him or "murica" off with the cynicism and mockery you have already employed. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2015 09:00PM by GravelSpeed. |
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