Open Light Subaru build

Alex, get that thing up here quick. I'm set to weld a bucha ears including briann's and Lee Wildman, and your other side. may as well do yours same time..
You'll be getting CrMo ears and I'll cap them on top and if I can on bottom.
You're 2 days away with UPS...

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Will do. I'll call you here shortly i should be shipping them out on Wednesday

I tried that phone thingy you are always talking about! it works



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2012 07:06PM by A1337STI.

Have you put the rear suspension through full travel with the spring off? I would do that, then do it with the strut out of the knuckle and see if you can phisically get it back in with the suspension near full compression. That should point you to a geometry flaw, or bind problem. If it goes through full travel, and you can get the strut/knuckle back together, then that leaves coil bind as the probably cause (which I would put as #1 likely cause)

Quote
phlat65
Have you put the rear suspension through full travel with the spring off? I would do that, then do it with the strut out of the knuckle and see if you can phisically get it back in with the suspension near full compression. That should point you to a geometry flaw, or bind problem. If it goes through full travel, and you can get the strut/knuckle back together, then that leaves coil bind as the probably cause (which I would put as #1 likely cause)

I checked with spring maker and the spring has 8.37" travel to bind, the insert without bump stop has 8.2" and I supply a 3.5" bumper.
That squished down a whole lot but there has to be around .25" of squished bumper at least. So it in all likelihood, 99% certainty, it ain't coil bind....
At Mt. Hood, Chris Caylor tacoed a front arm, broke the mounts front and rear, yanked the strut out of the car and even flopping around didn't bend the ears...
I say its bad geometry...the question is why just now when I used the same ears on the 50s and supplied I don't know how many of those but at least 4-5 sets.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ive been thinking more and more about this. Do you think its possible to have to stiff of front springs?

Im thinking if the car hits a big bump and the fronts to stiff it will transfer the wait straight to the rear just in time for the rear to hit the same bump and put way to much load on the 100 pound softer spring causing an over load?

I just cant figure out how the front struts are not bending with all the wait out front?

The thought came to me at a modified race at Bristol motor speedway earlier this fall. (holy f-ing fast 117 mph AVG on a half mile oval) The car has bumpstops on the front with high rebound shocks holding the car down while racing. We have been running these shocks all year with no issues. At Bristol the car was bottoming out bad and we couldnt figure out how seeing we were all ready on bumpstops up front. Then after looking under the car we found it was the rear that was hitting. We stiffened the rear springs by a bunch and the car didnt bottom out and was fast as hell. Started 12th and finished 7th.

I could see something similar to this happening in a rally car hitting big bumps. Thoughts?

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Quote
Reamer
Ive been thinking more and more about this. Do you think its possible to have to stiff of front springs?

Im thinking if the car hits a big bump and the fronts to stiff it will transfer the wait straight to the rear just in time for the rear to hit the same bump and put way to much load on the 100 pound softer spring causing an over load?

I just cant figure out how the front struts are not bending with all the wait out front?

The thought came to me at a modified race at Bristol motor speedway earlier this fall. (holy f-ing fast 117 mph AVG on a half mile oval) The car has bumpstops on the front with high rebound shocks holding the car down while racing. We have been running these shocks all year with no issues. At Bristol the car was bottoming out bad and we couldnt figure out how seeing we were all ready on bumpstops up front. Then after looking under the car we found it was the rear that was hitting. We stiffened the rear springs by a bunch and the car didnt bottom out and was fast as hell. Started 12th and finished 7th.

I could see something similar to this happening in a rally car hitting big bumps. Thoughts?

One of the enduro guys I used to race with had the same philosophy. I was having a hell of a time setting up the suspension on my bike once and he came over and said "you're over thinking it the problem is on the opposite end from where you think it is." just my dos centavos.
Are any other brands running similar rates front and rear and do they have similar issues?

Any Subaru guys have correct corner weights?

Another thing to look for might be the "vent hole" in the bottom of the strut casing.

As the bumpstop compresses, i'd bet that it is sealing off this vent hole, which would work like a bumpstop inside the strut casing....you won't be able to compress that volume of air too well.

On a couple of struts i've drilled a vent hole in between the ears, facing the hub.

On my 50mm's i suspected this was happening, and drilled the holes bigger. You have far less space in the 40mm stuff.

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Chris

One of my vent holes had a little bit of welding spatter on it... i guess a 2nd vent hole (or a different location) wouldn't hurt.

On my Crunched Rear, it was fully compressed but the spring was not at coil bind (super close) but not actual coil bind.

So the 50s are fine in the rear but not the 40s ... Maybe the solution is GCs must run 50s in the back?

My KSport suspension also seized up in the rear. the ears look perfect. I used that coilover @ Prescott , and about 30 miles of grass-o-cross in prarie city (hard hard packed dirt, a lil bit rough)

out of Everyone who is bending their rears on a GC, No one is bending the fronts.. Doesn't that alone smell like suspension geometry issue?

Now some of us run in production type classes where we are stuck having to bolt something to factory mounting points... so we just have to find a way to deal with the suspension geometry issues.

the pressure release vents may be playing a part. near full compression all of a sudden the dampening rate changes drastically and the ears start to bend. keep playing on a bent ear and you may bend the insert...

Maybe part of the solution is going to be realizing that things are what they are (suspension geometry, and making the best possible coilover ona budget) that I'm just not going to be able to hit any jump as hard as i want to... There's an absolute limit on how big you can go.

Louie is doing this on stock RS suspension... (bottoming out and bouncing) I'd really think/hope I'd be fine doing the same on rally suspension. : at the 40 second mark is him driving part of one of the stages (its an OHV park the rest of the year)




I hit those going faster though. think i landed 20 feet infront of the 2nd jump

The vent hole on the bottom is for venting air out of the lower tube as the insert comes in and displaces air..which would act like a spring if not vented..
Nothing to do with damping--which is the piston inside the insert moving thru oil.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

ooh, so once fully installed the insert doesn't need to vent any air to go through its full range of motion...

d'oh

Quote
A1337STI
ooh, so once fully installed the insert doesn't need to vent any air to go through its full range of motion...

d'oh

Think of the upper which is 40mm, plunging into the lower slider a depth of 190mm, the insert displaces 2.387 liters of air in the bottom tube.
That air needs to go out---or you have an air spring...

The shaft is 10mm. when the shaft plunges into the insert, it displaces 149cc, and the floating piston in the base separation the oil from the N moved to accommodate the displaced oil...

Think lingham into yoni.....

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The suspension geometry is the same from 93 to 07. I just installed 03 WRX front and rear sub frames, trailing arms, lateral links ,spindles, brakes and a rack and pinion all on a 98 gc body. The geometry is not the best we know this. What we dont know is why lots of other rally cars are not bending the ears and others are.

1998 gc front spring rates are 159 lbs and rears are 149 lbs. Thats only 10 pounds split from front to rear. The gravel K sports I just got from Even have 360 fronts and 260 rears thats over 90 pounds more split then stock.

How did the strut companies come up with the car needing so much more spring split front to back?

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Interesting spring rate inclusions...

my ksports which never bent the ears came with 325/280 which was too high, made a jarring ride, and I did not feel like i has as much control. but at first I tried 350/280 to help with excessive oversteer in the dirt. (the tail would come out, in Nuetral on a slight uphill turn, with you smoothly turning into the corner :O)

I ended up putting 250/200 on the car and it Felt much better . ran about 10 events on the Ksports (with a 1.8 L)

I switched to the JVABS 275/200 and the car instantly felt more in control. the handling feels awesome. the car has a slight bit more body roll than on Ksport (softer dampening for lower strut speed) ? It lifts the nose a little on the gas, dives on braking. Bigger rocks/ pot holes are gobbled up magically... they feel awesome!

comparing my stage times now versus last year. I'm a lot faster now. with in the CRS i went from a .83 speed factor to a .89

at NNR i was 35 seconds faster a 9 mile stage, and then 50 seconds faster on an 11 mile stage. And i specifically remember one section that is very jarring on the car. a kick on the left side, to a kick on the right side as you are going R5 into L5. the ksport year i felt like i was on the edge of control and the tires got off the ground. this JVAB year i went through fast, tires stayed on the ground and i felt more in control.

I guess the spring rates could be part of the issue... but the car feels so good with these springs... but feeling good <> always equal being fast (or sustainable) ... hmmmf

Quote
Reamer
The suspension geometry is the same from 93 to 07. I just installed 03 WRX front and rear sub frames, trailing arms, lateral links ,spindles, brakes and a rack and pinion all on a 98 gc body. The geometry is not the best we know this. What we dont know is why lots of other rally cars are not bending the ears and others are.

1998 gc front spring rates are 159 lbs and rears are 149 lbs. Thats only 10 pounds split from front to rear. The gravel K sports I just got from Even have 360 fronts and 260 rears thats over 90 pounds more split then stock.

How did the strut companies come up with the car needing so much more spring split front to back?

What is measured travel front? And rear? Those are significantly higher rates than anything but real WRC Subie stuff from mid 90s that I've seen.
25% more than my "normal newb" springs front and 33% more stiffer-er in back...maybe the rears just never move more than 2-3". Serious.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.