Open Light Subaru build

I got these K sports on a trade for a bunch of sti stuff. They look to only have 6 3/4" travel and I havent pulled them apart yet to see if theres bump stops. I agree they seem really stiff.

Who knows what springs they were sent with. There web sight says the rates I posted.

Even Cline had a sponsor deal with K sport and has or had multiple sets. I was going to set them up with soft springs and let Amanda Skelly use them at snow drift but chose to go with stock WRX instead. No sense in wrecking a brand new set of struts in her first rally.

Im not sure yet what Im going to do with these seeing that they wont fit my car.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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I am scaling a 2wd gc this sunday and I will be scaling Amandas open light gc early next week I will post the #s early next week. The 2wd Subaru is on Bilstiens with 175,150 springs for snow. and The OL is on stock WRX.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Quote
Reamer


Even Cline had a sponsor deal with K sport and has or had multiple sets. I was going to set them up with soft springs and let Amanda Skelly use them at snow drift but chose to go with stock WRX instead. No sense in wrecking a brand new set of struts in her first rally.

.

Wow... stock WRX set-up and going to a rally. I really hope you have a truck load of spares.

With the winter we have been having and the probably conditions up there, i suspect things will be pretty rough. The snow hasn't had a chance to fill in holes and freeze up. Never been to Sno-Drift, but i can tell you Perce Neige had little snow last year, and it was rough. Traditionally it's pretty smooth.

That stock WRX stuff will go bendy bend! They don't take side loading too well!

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Chris

I agree but shes planning on going to learn and finish. I dont see her going faster then she feels comfortable.

Most all veterans say to run stock stuff at SD. especially a rookie. I had the k sports installed but took them out. Time will tell if that was smart or not. We can always drop them in after test day.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
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Well if she's at a normal (1st time at a rally pace) they might survive. i was extra slow my first rally. stage 1 I was slower than the bogie time :O

What's the spring range that will work with the JVABs out of curiosity ? I was installing my rear sway bar last night and it got me thinking.

I'm starting to think the Bending of the inserts is related to how much overlap there is between the outer threaded tube, and the insert tube.

I bought marks set of JVABs, which have a slightly different design. the inserts are lower in the threaded tube, so his threaded tubes are shorter, he has less overlap than my set of JVABS and his inserts are bent pretty good. then i looked at my Ksports. they have like 4inches more of overlap! so much so that their outter threaded tube at full compression almost kisses the upper spring perch.

Infact they taper the top of their outer (threaded) tube to be slimmer allowing it to fit inbetween the spring/spring perch and the Insert tube.

If you think about it the less overlap you have, the bigger the lever arm is , with the fulcrum being the end point of your overlapping outer tube.

The ears on Marks JVABs have been gusseted and look OK. one is perfect, one looks like it wanted to bend but couldn't due to the gussets (wasn't fully welded)


So that's my current theory that came to me in an Ah-Ha moment when i had all the coilovers on my floor and i was taking pictures.


I lined those up by the mounting bolt holes, look at where the outer tube ends on each one. notice the Ksport has about 4" extra Mine (middle) and the marks on the right has about 3" less than mine. (his insert is mounted Lower than mine but not by 3 inches)

I'm pretty damn sure if the outer tube was made as long as possible (so long it kisses the upper spring perch at full compression) and the ears get gusseted. that even the rear GC suspension geometry would be no match.


Course if your chassis goes up over ... 5 feet , you are going to break something! lol

The overlap is within 1/4" the same on Version 1.1 and 1.2
When I get your stuffs here and apart and marked up side by side you'll see. You'll see.
Just packing Brianne Corns and heading off to UPS. I'll do your two and the spares at the same time but your one side is ready for weld..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

On Matt's it looks like it just went to the next week link. It blows my Mind how the K sports look good and the bottom mounts dont look that beefy. I would stil maybe try to meet some where in the middle of front to rear spring rates and hope you dont loose drive ability. Here are the spring rates I found on NorthUrsalia.com

Spring Front Rate Rear Rate Manufacturer's Website
Stock 1998-2001 2.5RS 157 149 Subaru/FHI
Stock 2002 2.5RS (MT/AT) 149/158 117/129 Subaru/FHI
Stock 2002 WRX Sedan (MT/AT) 163/163 119/132 Subaru/FHI
Stock 2002 WRX Wagon (MT/AT) 163/163 132/144 Subaru/FHI
AVO Sport EVO 250 200 AVO
GDA STi Sport Springs 200 185 Subaru/FHI
2004 USDM STi 224 194 Subaru/FHI
2002-2003 STi "Pink" 215 190 Subaru/FHI
2004 STi "Pink" 257 217 Subaru/FHI
SPT/STi 217 190 Subaru/FHI
Prodrive P1 215 195 Prodrive
Progress Technology (WRX) 210 150
Eibach 171 91-188 Eibach
ProKit (2002-2003 WRX Wagon) 171 160 Eibach
5Zigen 169.3-225.7 79-180.6 5Zigen
Tein Soft 67.2-179.18 61.59-179.18 Tein
Tein Medium 67.2-235.18 61.59-218.38 Tein
Tein Hard 307.98 279.98 Tein
HTech (2002-2003 WRX) 196 140 Tein
STech (2002-2003 WRX) 218 157 Tein
HTech (2004 WRX And STi) 229 196 Tein
STech (2004 WRX And STi) 252 219 Tein
H and R Sport 196.25-204.1 186.25-193.7 H and R
STi Version 4 196 174 Subaru Technica Inc.
STi Version 5 224 185 Subaru Technica Inc.
STi Version 6 237 195 Subaru Technica Inc.
STi Version 6 Tarmac/Gymkhana (Autocross) 286 274 Subaru Technica Inc.
STi Spec C/Type RA 224 194 Subaru Technica Inc.
DMS 40mm Street/Gold 225 180 DMS
DMS 50mm Rally 275 225 DMS
DMS Tarmac 700 650 DMS
DMS 60mm Super Strut 260 200 DMS
Espelier GT (2004) 280 230
GAB Revolutions II 335 280 GAB Japan
Ground Control (2004 STi) 300 300
Whiteline Progressive Lowering 190 150-170 Whiteline
RSR Down 216 177 RSR
RSR Ti2000 (2004 STi) 268 194 RSR
DF210 (2002-2003 WRX) 196 146 Tanabe
GF210 (2002-2003 WRX) 168 157 Tanabe
GF210 (2004 STi) 241 224 Tanabe
Street (2002-2003 WRX) 230 147 Hotchkis

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

The Ksport coilovers are gusseted just above and below the ear. any force that is trying to bend the flat ear piece sideways, will also have to stretch a small rectangle on a perpendicular plane .

Math & Geometry for the win! on my ksport coilover i would bend their top hats (2 sets) so i guess gusseted ears combined with weaker top hats was a winning combination (for their ears anyways) .

I'll have to bug JVL to see if we can't create 1 rear with the maximum tube overlap that will still allow full travel and see if anything changes... I'll also need more consistent In-car so we can review my driving, what i'm driving over, and what i'm bumping into. I think the stages i fail to get in car from are the times i'm doing damage...

hanging your trail out at 60+ and bumping the berm might not feel like much from within the car.. but may be some large forces on the struts (and the poor little inserts)

I just mailed you out 6 tubes (2 with bent inserts stuck inside of them) 4 free tubes (3 bent, 1 slightly bent)

and as per your instructions i did my best to label Everything. black sharpe . everything got an A.Rad on it somewhere . the stuff that was marks i tried to label as "was marks"

Quote
A1337STI
The Ksport coilovers are gusseted just above and below the ear. any force that is trying to bend the flat ear piece sideways, will also have to stretch a small rectangle on a perpendicular plane .

Math & Geometry for the win! on my ksport coilover i would bend their top hats (2 sets) so i guess gusseted ears combined with weaker top hats was a winning combination (for their ears anyways) .

I'll have to bug JVL to see if we can't create 1 rear with the maximum tube overlap that will still allow full travel and see if anything changes... I'll also need more consistent In-car so we can review my driving, what i'm driving over, and what i'm bumping into. I think the stages i fail to get in car from are the times i'm doing damage...

hanging your trail out at 60+ and bumping the berm might not feel like much from within the car.. but may be some large forces on the struts (and the poor little inserts)

I just mailed you out 6 tubes (2 with bent inserts stuck inside of them) 4 free tubes (3 bent, 1 slightly bent)

and as per your instructions i did my best to label Everything. black sharpe . everything got an A.Rad on it somewhere . the stuff that was marks i tried to label as "was marks"

Coolio, dood.
Just started disassembling some Sub-a-rat rear DMS 50mm which had.......

believe it or not had................................





Wait for it.................


Badly bent ears....bent forward*.... I'll post piccies

Be interesting to see all of them side by side....



Did you know that according to Jamie Drummond, head Kahuna at DMS, that there has never been a failure of a DMS unit in competition? I've held in my hot little hands a print out of the email he was telling the old, original Dave Clark...
All failures were user install related.... Its all YOUR fault...

Which now we know this is some chronic Subie geometry related problem, what should i be doing about the time aspect of chopping off ears and welding on new???

Is this "labor" or warranty or sponsorship?

Hey anybody know if the wag-goon version of GC8 has anything different in suspension than the sedan???

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I have the 2002 WRX wagon suspension on my 96 coupe. There was no geometry difference, just a different spring rate.

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
Gravity Fed
I have the 2002 WRX wagon suspension on my 96 coupe. There was no geometry difference, just a different spring rate.

x2.. I suspect pretty similar as well.

The 02 + WRX/STi should have about 10mm longer lateral links than the GC/Wagons..

Really starting to wish we got more pics of Alex's when it was stuck in the up position. Might have shed some light on what was going on, we were just in too much of a rush to get it swapped and go begging around the pits for a spare.

Also, this bent forward business. I can't help but think its being influenced by the trailing link. Maybe a hair too much up travel so that when it finally compresses the bump stop on hard landings that the trailing link is past the point in its arc where it moves back and has started to pull things forward again.. Dunno.. I'm just a car geek by night and hacker by day..

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Quote

This isn't floor mat anarchy

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2012 10:49AM by alosix.

Ill tell you the fix I would try. I would close the gap between the front and rear spring split and add a second bump stop or a hydro bump stop in the strut. I also would maybe play with front rebound and rear compression. There has to be a happy middle that doesnt wreck struts and still is fast.
We know the geometry is bad we also know that teams have been winning with this geometry with out failure for years and years from WRC to Nasa to RA.

Im sure it can be worked out with some testing. Maybe set up some travel indicators to measure comp and rebound and test on a jump or a rough section that you can run multiple times at various speeds. Measure change run. measure change run. measure change run. Rally is always changing conditions but a consistent car will always be fast.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

John are you talking about Louies dms 50s? .. if not

He also bent his (maybe from all his playing around @ Gorman.. its his car in the gorman video i posted)

If So, that would be at least 2 DMS 50s that bent in the rear on a GC .

I still have one pic of the stuck strut , I can text it to you if you want Jason..

here's the (maybe bent) DMS
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7026/6799455115_b1d50a5c98_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7017/6799459605_8fa56aba30_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7174/6799450469_9cc11e86f6_b.jpg

Obviously he was not competing when it bent, he must have been installing it

Quote
john vanlandingham
Which now we know this is some chronic Subie geometry related problem, what should i be doing about the time aspect of chopping off ears and welding on new???

Is this "labor" or warranty or sponsorship?

Uhm... Sponsorship / Warranty por favor ? I can make some big JVAB suspensions Stickers with your website and info on them and start listing you as my sponsor when i sign up to events / press releases , etc. I've been quite vocal about how awesome the car handles now, and my result aren't too shabby either.

I'm not expecting warranty, But damn that sure would be very Nice!!!

Call me up when the last box makes it to your house and we'll chat about how much i'm gonna owe.. hehehe

I think John is referencing my set of DMS's. One set of ears was so badly bent the tire was resting against the spring. That set was a fresh rebuild from Mark at MSI and had only seen one RNY gravelsprint, BRS and then IRNY. Granted we did spin the car in a mudhole and hit a few jumps but nothing super crazy. The rest of the suspension is stock links and GrpN hats. This is on a GD chassis.

Let me know how things go John and any ancillary information is always greatly appreciated!

We completely rebuilt the Open Light car with new diffs, transmission, axles, uprights and rear brakes. Then took it to Mexico for the WRC event. Seemed to be in the best shape ever. And it worked OK until a jump during the stadium Super Stage caused one of the struts to break. It sheared ACROSS the strut body and the insert shaft broke right at the base of the threads. Brianne found a local that welded up the housing on the roadside so she could get back to service where we finished welding it, and welded the shaft to the bottom of the housing. That at least got us rolling again. The next day she lightly bent a front arm and the revised ears of both rear struts even while taking it "easy" and not jumping the car at all. The day ended when she didn't take a corner wide enough to avoid a drain hole while the suspension was already compressed from the crest. The car cased into the hole and flipped onto the C-pillar and trunk. The front right suspension was pushed back and up into the car from the initial impact. The front left suspension was pulled out and forward from the car in the landing. There was deformation in the front frame horns where the radiator and skid plate support pushed the frame up. The floors and tunnel have some deformation. The cage survived and seems undamaged, but most of the impact was taken by the C-pillars. Both Brianne and Jeremy were unhurt. Most of the surviving components will go into a very lightweight coupe we've been plotting.

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Jason McDaniel