What did you do on the rally car today?

Nice cylinder head!
Well, it looks like I may have 'burned a piston'....perhaps the clearance was wrong from the machine shop...any idea what clearance should be on one of these with forged pistons? I had mine at 4 thousandths.

Brian !!!

Call me, I'll give you some 15" WELL USED Gravel Tyres to throw on those wheels.

Back to topic, after losing the fuel pressure at Prescott and collecting scenary and nature under the car (navvie side of course) I decided to redesign and redo the whole fuel line installation.

Here's the shopping list from Loper's

4 x 100008 AN Fittings $ 9.20/ea $ 36.80
2 x 209008 AN Fittings $ 23.15/ea $ 46.30
1 x 981688 AN Fitting $ 4.78/ea $ 4.78
2 x 981608 AN Fitting $ 3.37/ea $ 6.74
2 x 550108 AN Fitting $ 4.60/ea $ 9.20
1 x 650360 Russell Y $ 34.16/ea $ 34.16
1 x 26-180 Holley Fitting $ 24.40/ea $ 24.40
1 x 9919EFH Earls Fitting $ 7.01/ea $ 7.01
5ft #8 Steel Braided Line $ 6.00/ft $ 30.00
TOTAL $199.39
TAX $ 16.15
Grand Total $215.54

After much cursing in 14 languages due to fingertips being poked numerous times by braids, we have no leaks and bitchin' fuel pressure.

---

Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2007 01:36AM by sagsert.

sagsert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian !!!
>
> Call me, I'll give you some 15" WELL USED Gravel
> Tyres to throw on those wheels.

Excellent! I'll do that. Gonna be a couple weeks before I can get over to snag them, though. This weekend, I'm popping the pistons out and inspecting them for "ring land surprise." If the pistons are still intact, I'll be honing the cylinders and installing new rings.

I've picked up another head and have my ARPs en route.

Saturday, the 27th, I shall be in the garage (which is cluttered and filthy, of course) putting 195 back together again.

Wish me luck!

EDIT:
sagsert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Loper's

(shudder) It's painful dealing with them at times.

"What kind of car is it for?"
"Uh. It's an AN fitting. It doesn't matter."
"Well, it can matter. What kind of car?"
"Okay, chief. You win. It's a 1017awhp, 2nd gen TSi AWD."

And then I wake up...

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2007 02:27PM by DR1665.

frumby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nice cylinder head!
> Well, it looks like I may have 'burned a
> piston'....perhaps the clearance was wrong from
> the machine shop...any idea what clearance should
> be on one of these with forged pistons? I had
> mine at 4 thousandths.

Hey Jason,

Sorry to hear that. .003-.004 sounds typical for forged piston. If you burned a piston, I assume you mean it melted down by one edge. or through the top? If so, it's possibly due to timing problems (too advanced), or, since you are boosted, more likely too much boost. What is your max boost? And I assume you are running the 34 mm restrictor (as you should have been)? Fuel type?

Regards,
Mark B.

Well, It took me a few days to get my garage in order to tear a car apart again so I just got into the motor (head off).
I had checked the oil after the turn around at BRS stage 1 and it looked clean, but draining it here it is clear a bunch of water in the oil. A little tough to tell with all the mess, but probably the HG. That's not the only problem though....no pistons are burnt and they don't appear damaged (perhaps a bit of light scoring on the sides of the cylinder walls) it sure looks like the #1 piston has made contact with the head.

WHY would that happen?? Perhaps a turned rod bearing would be enough to do that...this motor is sure making a terrible sound.

One other thing. The oil pump is real tough to turn...not like when I installed it. I sure didn't run far with the engine in this condition...but maybe it was enough to really screw up every bearing surface in the motor?

One way to find out I guess...I just gotta figure out not just what went wrong but WHY it went wrong. Can't afford to put another motor together and have something like this happen again!

Oh, boost was 12psi, ignition was about 10 BTC, so I don't think that should be the cause...never know though.

Jason,

Why did you have it timed at 10 BTDC ?


Brian,

I know a good machine shop in your neck of the woods, call me if you need their number. They do a great job and the turnaround time is unbeatable.

---

Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors

sagsert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian,
>
> I know a good machine shop in your neck of the
> woods, call me if you need their number. They do a
> great job and the turnaround time is unbeatable.

Appreciated, but I don't think it will ne necessary, Moose. Got another head today and a buddy is doing the gasket match on it, the exhaust mani, and intake mani. He's also going to port the O2 housing for me.

ARP studs are set to be delivered Monday, and the new piston rings should be here Tuesday. I stumbled upon a 1G thermostat housing this afternoon as well, so all I need to do now is get out there in the morning tomorrow and pop those pistons up out of the block.

Keep your fingers crossed, fellas. If the ring lands are still in tact, I'll be honing the cylinders this week one evening. #195 returns to the road in seven days!

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

So what all did you find? Did you turn a bearing? Screwed up oil pump? What caused it? Not knowing the history of the motor or seeing what's wrong I could nonly guess that it's contamination of some sort. Dirt, or a piece of bearing material that got stuck in an oil gallery. Do youself a favour and clean everything out thoroughly, remove all the plugs for the oil galleries, Brush them all out, then flush them, then do it again, then blow them out with air. if you don'tstart iff with a completely clean block you're just asking for more trouble.
I've learned this the hard way, as has just about everyone I know who competes and builds their own motors.

Good luck...Martin.

Brian !!!!!

Check the cylinders and check the gap of the new rings, do a test fit oc the ring in the cyl first, Was there any flop with the old pistons ? You don;t wanna do the same ting 3 times (like I did before Prescott).

---

Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors

frumby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, It took me a few days to get my garage in
> order to tear a car apart again so I just got into
> the motor (head off).
> I had checked the oil after the turn around at BRS
> stage 1 and it looked clean, but draining it here
> it is clear a bunch of water in the oil. A little
> tough to tell with all the mess, but probably the
> HG. That's not the only problem though....no
> pistons are burnt and they don't appear damaged
> (perhaps a bit of light scoring on the sides of
> the cylinder walls) it sure looks like the #1
> piston has made contact with the head.
>
> WHY would that happen?? Perhaps a turned rod
> bearing would be enough to do that...this motor is
> sure making a terrible sound.
>
> One other thing. The oil pump is real tough to
> turn...not like when I installed it. I sure
> didn't run far with the engine in this
> condition...but maybe it was enough to really
> screw up every bearing surface in the motor?
>
> One way to find out I guess...I just gotta figure
> out not just what went wrong but WHY it went
> wrong. Can't afford to put another motor together
> and have something like this happen again!
>
> Oh, boost was 12psi, ignition was about 10 BTC, so
> I don't think that should be the cause...never
> know though.

Oooh yeah. Not good. Possibly:
- A failed head gasket, then water in the crankcase and then the bearing shot, as well as the oil pump. Was the head resurfaced prior to reassembly?
- I'd be looking at a rod stretching or more likely rod bolts stretching and failing, being as or more likely than the rod bearing failure as causing the psiton contact with the head. What Max RPM's did you turn on that stage? Take all the rods out and check for end-to-end length, and take the rod bolts out and check them length.

Do you have an oil pressure gage in the car? What is the max oil pressure?

Regards,
Mark B.

12 psi boost does not seem too much and you did not find a burnt piston so that makes sense.

I started plating and welding in steel rods to the end of the front frame rail to build a VRP. I also added a second topcoat to the por15 on the cage .... its got a couple runs, but its about function right??

---

-Jason

sagsert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian !!!!!
>
> Check the cylinders and check the gap of the new
> rings, do a test fit oc the ring in the cyl first,
> Was there any flop with the old pistons ? You
> don;t wanna do the same ting 3 times (like I did
> before Prescott).

No piston flop. One looked to have a slight bit of wear on the skirt, but the cylinders look great. Bearings are also in good shape, considering their age and mileage. I'll be paying extra close attention to the ring gaps prior to install. I've eyeballed gaps in the past and paid the price.

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

I finally broke down and bought a rally car. My Audi 90q project is months away from anything, due to us building a shop at home. I came across an '84 VW Scirocco that had been built a few years ago, ran one event, then had been parked. It's gonna need some TLC... new fuel/brake lines, new skidplate (currently 1/8" aluminum), underbody protection, suspension checkover, rusty holes replaced for certification, roof bar added for the updated CARS rules, new belts, bits rewired...

One month till Pines.

Well, after spenting last night reassembling the red 90q rally car enough that I could move it (which resulted in cross-threading several fasteners and not completely bolting a few things on like the subframe), I was able to move it out of the garage tonight, and get the Scirocco inside.

First issue… the roof vents leak… so the seats are damp. Second issue… the sliding arm to select floor/panel/defrost is missing (as is the hot/cold arm), so even though it’s putting out heat, I can’t turn on the defroster to unfog the windshield.

The car is up in the air, wheels are off, and part of the suspension is torn apart.

Car has a Bilstein coilover suspension on it, which will stay on the car for now. It appears that the springs in the front are too long, which is why they had to be set so low and rubbed on the tires. Also, the adjusting rings are slightly too small, and the spring isn’t centered properly. So, taking the shock body into a machine shop I deal with, to have them make up some locating rings to sit on the current adjusters and align the springs. I just happen to have a set of shorter springs in a similar spring rate… 10″ length and 325lbs/in. instead of the 12" and 350lbs/in.

Rear brakes need some minor work; they are a drum setup, which I will keep for now until I can source the bits to swap to disc brakes. So far I have found one sticky wheel cylinder, so it will be replaced. All new hard lines and flex lines will be installed on all four corners of the car.

Started poking at the floor, which I suspected was hiding more rust than it showed. Sure enough, pretty much the entire passenger front floor is rotten out. Some sheet metal, a hammer, and the welder… and I’ll have it all patched up. Also pulled out the passenger seat to make more room. Should be getting a different set of seats from a friend of mine, then I will need to order new safety harnesses… but those aren’t needed till after the car is certified.

Lots more to do. Pines in 30 days.

dtompsett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> The car is up in the air, wheels are off, and part
> of the suspension is torn apart.
>
> Car has a Bilstein coilover suspension on it,
> which will stay on the car for now. It appears
> that the springs in the front are too long, which
> is why they had to be set so low and rubbed on the
> tires.

Don't jump to conclusion, maybe they were chosen so that they have more spring travel to coil bind than the damper/strut insert has travel.
I doubt 350 x 12 has enough anyway.
But I have no doubt that is absurdly stiff for a 'rocco
Work spec for the progressive Ford springs was 341lbs/in in the middle part for 1200kg powerful 4x4 car.

Your rubbing should be cured with longer EARS off the bottom to the upright.

Check for marks stamped into the top of the chrome shaft and also check for shaft travel, a 250 or 275 x 12 is maybe the max rate and min length I could imagine unless you have really short inserts.


Also, the adjusting rings are slightly too
> small, and the spring isn’t centered properly.
> So, taking the shock body into a machine shop I
> deal with, to have them make up some locating
> rings to sit on the current adjusters and align
> the springs.

Might be cheaper to just buy fresh lower spring platforms that fit 2 1/2" id springs. I might be able to pry loose some of the 30-40 I have here.
Thread should be M52 x 2, I made my stuff to the standard Bilstein size just so my parts can interchange with theirs.

I just happen to have a set of
> shorter springs in a similar spring rate…
> 10″ length and 325lbs/in. instead of the
> 12" and 350lbs/in.

Spring travel? Way stiff!!!!
>
> Rear brakes need some minor work; they are a drum
> setup, which I will keep for now until I can
> source the bits to swap to disc brakes. So far I
> have found one sticky wheel cylinder, so it will
> be replaced. All new hard lines and flex lines
> will be installed on all four corners of the car.

Check the drums up in a lathe, carve the drum portion where the shoes rub off, sling the remaining things back onto the drum spindle.
Grab some convenient sized FRONT rotor and heave that on over the studs you earlier pressed in (BUGPACK PN6545 M14 x 2.2" and slide over that some caliper with a piston between 35-38mm. Make a bracket to hit wher it needs, this sis easier that looking for the discbrake bearing carriers with the ears, then using the puny 7" x .020" wide VW rear discs.

Jon Nichols described how he did this on his old Golf, he used some vented fronts in rear, Willwood 2 pot calipers.

>
> Started poking at the floor, which I suspected was
> hiding more rust than it showed. Sure enough,
> pretty much the entire passenger front floor is
> rotten out. Some sheet metal, a hammer, and the
> welder… and I’ll have it all patched up. Also
> pulled out the passenger seat to make more room.
> Should be getting a different set of seats from a
> friend of mine, then I will need to order new
> safety harnesses… but those aren’t needed till
> after the car is certified.
>
> Lots more to do. Pines in 30 days.

Hey call me about the fuel line thing, its relatively easy.
Use 5/16 or 3/8" and invertedflare and terminate with Male/male adaptors where you need to have metric in like pump, fuel distributor, so you end up with say M14 male into pump and -6 male sticking out, connect your line or hose to that.
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
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