Sand Blast 2014 penalty scandal?

So someone linked me to a post on face space regarding a kerfluffle of sorts following SB. Apparently the Brakim Racing boys were initially awarded the 2wd win. This was then retracted because they were slapped with a 10 minute penalty which punted them way down the list. A post was made by them showing cash they were using to pay the organizers to keep the trophy.

The penalty was awarded due to illegal service, changing tires at a fuel only stop according to NRS's website. Now nothing against the drive they pulled off yesterday, as they were obviously fast, but in my neck of the woods we call that cheating. New tires could easily be the difference between them and 2nd place. I saw a claim that they did nothing wrong. Mistakes happen, and a penalty could have been awarded by accident, but why then pay what they call a bribe to the organizers? Something stinks and Id like to hear the bottom of it. As of this morning the results still showed them carrying the 10 minute penalty, but on their sight they are claiming the win. All bribe related posts have been removed, wish I would've screen shot everything for posterity. Not sure what to believe anymore. Anders I would really like you to chip in on this on. John and Keith, please try not to blow this thread up with some unrelated argument.

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I Seppanen, Car #240

They answered the "missing posts" question on FB.

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Chris Simons
LoL what happened to all the NASA Rally Extortion posts go? Haha

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Brakim Racing
we get the trophy back in a week and we were asked by sponsor to remove it...

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Jason McDaniel

I'm guessing that...
A) they didn't realize they'd performed an illegal service
they were told they could protest, paying the relevant protest fee and find out solution in one week
C) someone angrily posted a distilled post about extortion and how they could buy the trophy back (implying they feel they'd win the protest.)

Let's say the driver and codriver swapped on their spare tire using only tools in car with no help from service crew, swhich would be legal i think.
The real question, who is burden of proof on in a rally? Was this service observed by an official or reported by a competitor? Is burden on competitor observing to prove it happened or competitor penalized to prove it did not.
Regardless, not enough info to draw conclusions.

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Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
I'm guessing that...
A) they didn't realize they'd performed an illegal service
they were told they could protest, paying the relevant protest fee and find out solution in one week
C) someone angrily posted a distilled post about extortion and how they could buy the trophy back (implying they feel they'd win the protest.)

Let's say the driver and codriver swapped on their spare tire using only tools in car with no help from service crew, swhich would be legal i think.
The real question, who is burden of proof on in a rally? Was this service observed by an official or reported by a competitor? Is burden on competitor observing to prove it happened or competitor penalized to prove it did not.
Regardless, not enough info to draw conclusions.

You're probably correct, it just gets under my skin a bit when a team directly states that they are bribing officials to get their trophy back. I'm sure it was made in anger, and may or may not have been regretted. Either way allegations of bribery are worrying at best.

And as for needing more information, that's exactly why I made this post. $250 seems like a big number for a protest fee. I'm not trying to call anyone out, I just think there should be transparency to the system for fears that money and politics could decide the outcome of a race as apposed to stage times and the ability to follow the rules rally. Rally is by far the nerdiest Motorsport what with all the different controls, and rules governing service, and you can't win without adhering to them. You very rarely see Diggins' or LeStage getting penalties because it costs them time. Its the game.

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I Seppanen, Car #240



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2014 01:19PM by Ian S.

That particular service always seems to catch people out there. Every time I've run there, I've watched folks do more than just fuel at the fuel only service. Never said anything about it, other than a casual mention to the offenders that, while I didn't particularly care, some of the other competitors might.

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-Brian

I'd be interested in the background on this.

$250 is the appeal fee as listed in the NRS rulebook. That and the language saying they'll get the win back in a week suggests the penalty has stuck at the event level even after a protest. (although the results don't reflect that)

WRC events have a 'virtual notice board' where the clerk and steward decisions are all posted. When I get back to organizing an event where there is reasonable infrastructure I might do the same.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2014 01:39PM by Morison.

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Morison
$250 is the appeal fee as listed in the NRS rulebook. That and the language saying they'll get the win back in a week suggests the penalty has stuck at the event level even after a protest. (although the results don't reflect that)

Is there an immediate review for a protest? I though there was usually a review period prior to the decision. Obviously they felt they did nothing wrong.

Which brings me to the important question, which I've always wondered about but never when at a computer, who is burden of proof on if this is an offense reported by another competitor but not reported by an official?
In this example, it'd be nice to know:
Was their an official that observed the illegal service or was it reported by another competitor?
If this occurs at a fuel only service that is being observed by a steward (which it should be) and a steward fails to notice or penalize a team for illegal service, can a competitor report it later?

For something that carries such a hefty penalty as ten minutes, I would think a steward or similar worker observed infraction would be the only one to hold any weight. Competitor reports could be too biased.

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Grant Hughes

I may get shit for stating the obvious or regurgitating something that is written in just about every rulebook, but since you asked:

There are three levels of approaching 'disputes.'

Inquiry: informal but written, submitted to and decided by the organisers

Protest: if you don't like the decision of the organisers, you can submit a protest to the Stewards. A token cash amount goes with a Protest ($50 for rules/conduct, $200 for vehicle) The fee is returned if the protest is upheld.
Must be submitted at the event and the stewards of the event must reply. (This strongly suggests the answer is given at the event)

Appeal: If you don't like the answer the Stewards give, you can appeal to the sanctioning body. $250 appeal fee. The fee is only returned if the court of appeal recommends it be returned. Notice of appeal must be given to a Steward, which again suggests it happens at the event.

As for burden of proof. I doubt that any official would rely on the word of competitors who would stand to benefit from the penalty in assessing one.
On receiving an inquiry about a team changing tires at a fuel only service, I'd first ask the marshals at the service if they saw anything, then other competitors and finally the competitor themselves before assessing a penalty.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
I may get shit for stating the obvious or regurgitating something that is written in just about every rulebook, but since you asked:

There are three levels of approaching 'disputes.'

Inquiry: informal but written, submitted to and decided by the organisers

Protest: if you don't like the decision of the organisers, you can submit a protest to the Stewards. A token cash amount goes with a Protest ($50 for rules/conduct, $200 for vehicle) The fee is returned if the protest is upheld.
Must be submitted at the event and the stewards of the event must reply. (This strongly suggests the answer is given at the event)

Appeal: If you don't like the answer the Stewards give, you can appeal to the sanctioning body. $250 appeal fee. The fee is only returned if the court of appeal recommends it be returned. Notice of appeal must be given to a Steward, which again suggests it happens at the event.

As for burden of proof. I doubt that any official would rely on the word of competitors who would stand to benefit from the penalty in assessing one.
On receiving an inquiry about a team changing tires at a fuel only service, I'd first ask the marshals at the service if they saw anything, then other competitors and finally the competitor themselves before assessing a penalty.

Why would you get shit for that? It was very informative.

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Grant Hughes

Guys this whole thing is a lot more clear cut than it looks, it's this simple. Anders came to us after the penalty was posted and said "you guys were never given the one printed sheet with fuel only service because you weren't here" all of the documents we had (and the route book we were given as well as the websites sup regs and the email we received titled "final sup regs" yes that was the email.

facts:
website final sup regs (still posted) say service (not fuel only)
route book says service. (not fuel only)
we were being interviewed by anders as we changed the tires and everyone was told it was ok.
we didn't need new tires we had perfect ones on it, in fact we screwed up and put over inflated tires on and lost time (this is irrelevant but still a good fact. we ran 46 psi one stage whoops) we only got one good stage on the new tires which didn't make us shit for time. it was a night stage we had no light pods just nice little headlights. we still killed it no biggy.
second place team agreed with anders when he told them the penalty was being removed because every document we downloaded and were given stated service.
the $250 fee is a fee we had to pay AFTER the second place team paid them to review it. in order to have the race reviewed by a third party they made us pay $250 to have it reviewed.

it's a pretty simple deal guys. anders said they screwed up, it happens. and THEY did screw up.. and its costing us a huge headache for no reason. we're proud of our finish and times either way, say as you please I didn't read the comments I'm sure theres good and bad but these are the facts. we love rally and rally on we will.



Driver
Matt Brandenburg
BRAKIM Racing

VIDEO COMING SOON SANDBLAST

Also note they made us give them $250.00 thanks guys

we get the $250 back in a week but this isn't fair.

Was the change to a fuel only service posted on the official notice board?

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

We had photos of those and the codriver went over them so to my knowledge no it was on them (I was there when he took pics of them and he was very on top of his job) anders agreed that all 3 areas we had access to including the official route book said service. period. regardless guys this is a bullshit way to end a rally this isn't good racing. we had perfect tires on before. we didn't need tires. we took it easy on the last stage truth be told because we were sooooo far ahead... and we didn't have a steering wheel one stage and no light pod on the night stage (the only stage we ran on our new tires not overinflated, the tires made us no time) we had nothing else to do in service so we just changed tires while being interviewed because why not? we have new ones toss em on we're in first! it was great until the bs... just a bummer is all.

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brakim
Also note they made us give them $250.00 thanks guys

we get the $250 back in a week but this isn't fair.

I'm confused, what exactly isn't fair?

The fact that you had to pay a $250 fee to appeal the protest, as seems to be clearly stated in the rules?

or the fact that people are giving you shit for calling said rules-following extortion/bribery/whatever?



Seems to me that everything works out OK - the organizer owned up to their mistake, you get your trophy and (long-term) aren't out anything extra, the protest-er may or may not be out their protest fee.


Isn't the first rule of protests "if nobody's happy with the outcome, it's the right one"?

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

eh, this just isn't racing.. we raced.. we won... why all the dancing afterwards when everyone agreed in front of anders we won. it was a closed case amongst the competitors then they decided otherwise because of some paper not everyone was given which doesn't match the "final sup reg"? ... we just want to race but hey I get it fun stupid politics come with racing ... what a shame