Sand Blast 2014 penalty scandal?

John I answered twice now, I do not know is the answer. We saw plenty of cars servicing there and we were servicing as anders interviewed us we were hiding nothing we thought we were doing the right thing as some of the other teams did, no idea how many complained. none of this matters now its just a bummer. I posted pics of 2 forms of sup regs and a route book that said service and we serviced. the rest are just little details either way it's clear there was a major organizer ERROR here period. sup regs and route book say service. those other details are just trying to clear up a bigger screw up on their part thats all. this error was admitted to us it isn't a secret and I don' think they're trying to act like they had no hand in the error in fact we were apologized to more than once but that doesn't fix anything thats all. we learned a lesson here. no need to repeat the lesson we'll move on now

I'd also like to add the whole weasel thing is funny, I'm just a guy who loves to race and I could give two shits less about the politics of this. I can only say I'm sad they gave us 3 forms of "final" route instruction that said "SERVICE" we made one tire change we had no need to make what so ever, our tires were brand new. and we lost over this communication error on their part. that is all, there is nothing more to say. if you think I'm some sort of loser weasel you sir are confused and you'll find yourself misjudging people often. best wishes to all of you. we love rally period talk amongst yourselves as you wish but know we meant no harm here we only wish things could have been ran in a manner as to not put us in this situation, we put so much time and money into this to have it screwed up by something like this and these are the facts love it or hate it.

you also may want to ask around talk to the teams that know me... I'm the guy that takes my light bar off on a night stage and gives it to a competitor, I'm the guy that gives people my rally car to use for free. We're the team that helps everyone else above ourselves. We are not assholes or weasels. anyone who feels otherwise is welcome to come talk to me about it in person (and I do not mean this as some lame ass internet threat) if you meet my team you'll love them. they're all just good guys that love rally and we're sincerely upset that we were put in such a bad position thats all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 11:48AM by brakim.

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turoc
Where the whole east coast rally community is posting. Robevo at it...

https://www.facebook.com/robevo.rally?fref=ts&ref=br_tf

What a gong show.

Teams who are simply too lazy to check their own times and ask the organizers about times that don't look right. It shows a stunning lack of understanding about how events work, how scoring is done and WHY there are several back-up processes in place.

Back to this topic:

I thought I heard elsewhere that Bakrim was the only competitor who did more than just fuel at the service. John: You're being a bit hard on him since I doubt a team would have a full field perspective to know what other teams did or didn't do.

At the end of the day, the use of the bulletin board isn't mandated by the NASA rules. (Which I find really odd, it is pretty much the standard place for official notices worldwide isn't it? This is a perfect example of why ORGANIZERS want notice boards and why Stewards should not only sign and time stamp postings to the board but also keep a log of what was posted and when.)

It sounds like the organizers handed out the bulletin changing the service to fuel only directly to the competitors, meeting the notification requirements set out in the rules.

The appeal was poorly written and would never have gone anywhere on its own.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

so far its a good learning experience for all parts

---

I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Quote
Morison

Quote
turoc
Where the whole east coast rally community is posting. Robevo at it...

https://www.facebook.com/robevo.rally?fref=ts&ref=br_tf

What a gong show.

Teams who are simply too lazy to check their own times and ask the organizers about times that don't look right. It shows a stunning lack of understanding about how events work, how scoring is done and WHY there are several back-up processes in place.

Back to this topic:

I thought I heard elsewhere that Bakrim was the only competitor who did more than just fuel at the service. John: You're being a bit hard on him since I doubt a team would have a full field perspective to know what other teams did or didn't do.

At the end of the day, the use of the bulletin board isn't mandated by the NASA rules. (Which I find really odd, it is pretty much the standard place for official notices worldwide isn't it? This is a perfect example of why ORGANIZERS want notice boards and why Stewards should not only sign and time stamp postings to the board but also keep a log of what was posted and when.)

It sounds like the organizers handed out the bulletin changing the service to fuel only directly to the competitors, meeting the notification requirements set out in the rules.

The appeal was poorly written and would never have gone anywhere on its own.

we did noted twice at the event, our time needs to be changed...
also addressed to the marshals at time control, making sure they do make a note on they time sheet too our time is not right ... etc. Yes it was our fault being that lazy to do noting after we did it twice...
its off topic anyway

press on



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 01:08PM by Robevo.

The only thing to learn from this, is that if you see a fellow competitor making a mistake, then let them know instead of taking pictures. There's a lot of camaraderie in rally, so why not help another competitor in a situation like this.

Rally is a multi part sport, from bringing a compliant car, proper gear, respectful crew to understanding how the whole process works and...(drum roll) checking the final scores when posted. You (competitor) are responsible to know what meetings you missed, what happened while you were late and checking the final scores. All part of the equation. Time controls are not the final say in scoring, road marshalls are not the final say on scoring. You can have a great stgae time, flying finsh can love you to death but if you fawked up, say missed an ODO check, observed speeding or driving poorly, had your window down on stage you can get a penalty not known to the stage timing crew. So check the provisional scores..your(competitor obligation ). Maybe your scores are correct and the guy in front of you recieved an incorrect time and its your obligation to notice that. Route books (nearly a thing of the past) are printed well in advance , same with notes. Changes to a route or event can happen minutes before or during an event. There is no way in the world a route book can be other than a fair guestimation of what is intended.

No organizer can ensure every team attends a meeting, reads a bulletin board or keeps a handed bulletin. We try our best most times to make sure it is a fun and fair experience for all involved. We check score cards by hand, check logs and I've seen mistakes noticed and corrected at that level. The 30 minutes after posting of provisional scores is for the purpose of teams to double check their scores and those of the cars ahead of them to ensure mistakes aren't present. Simple, you (competitor) have a couple scores to verify in 30 minutes. We (event staff) just went thru hundreds or thousands of stage times and logs to get those scores , often in a pretty short time.

John, Dave and I used to wait weeks to get results in the mail. JV has mentioned that many times. You can damned well bet our co-drivers kept track of stuff at the event. There is more to rally than pedal to the metal and procedure be damned.

Lastly ,( I doubt it tho ) scores are final after 30 minutes, IF no issues are raised. I see on FB (oh the drama ) a cry for a 30 day provisional period..really? 30 days? Wait 29 days, file a protest? Wait how much longer for a reply, then someone else protests that reply and then what? We (the sport) could wait for a couple months for scores to be final...seems logical to me. Jeebus.

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brakim
we made one tire change we had no need to make what so ever, our tires were brand new. .

We all NOW know that nobody else misunderstood...since you were nice enough to post the penalty screen capture..
EVERYBODY else understood.
And obeyed.

You didn't "need to", then why did you do it?
I've just heard from somebody right there looking that the tires you put on were like vigorously CUT.......like way cut to be sand tires..
I thought something din't make sense...

Didn't "need to" is maybe, very probably true.. But you did, and sounds like you "wanted to" get something on better. Cut for paddle tire effect .

Have any piccies of the tires that went on?

I'm a big advocate when dealing with bureaucrats and police and meanies in general than one should "Never tell a lie when half the truth will do" and I have thought all long that there was sumpin missing from the story...

I've only driven like oh hundreds and hundreds of sand events and I know tire wear is insignificant to meaninglessly negligible....so if a guy is changing tires its for a solid competitive reason..

Come on, fess up, show us the tires that went on.

The thing is the whole thing sucks but rules are rules, no way around that.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
heymagic


John, Dave and I used to wait weeks to get results in the mail. JV has mentioned that many times. You can damned well bet our co-drivers kept track of stuff at the event. There is more to rally than pedal to the metal and procedure be damned.

You had co-drivers that damn well did, but I used co-driving position as a way to introduce likely or potential new cars guys into the sport, give them a chance to dip the toe in and see the whole process from prep before to beer fest after---so that was a luxury that I didn't have.. (sniffle) Poor me..
But man did I learn how to tell co-drivers how to note in the book Time of day for start, time of day for finish, do the SS times and write it down clearly so they COULD double check... To me that is their second major job as co-driver..
First is not getting us lost on transits...

By the way, thank you for the nice clear and clear headed post... That's why we need you to post here...
Again, thanks.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Matt read carefully what I wrote:

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whenever I encounter people in a conflict who for whatever reason steadfastly refuse to answer crucial questions, I conclude that they are being weaselly.

Ever see the gret movie Roshomon ?
Akira Kurusawa film from 1950..

Here's a link




Watch it, its only 87 minutes and it is a truly great film

So good it gave rise to a phenomenom called "the Roshomon effect"

Quote

Briefly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon_effect

The Rashomon effect is a term that has been used by a number of different scholars, journalists and film critics to refer to contradictory interpretations of the same events by different persons, a problem that arises in the process of uncovering truth. The phrase derives from the movie Rashomon, where four witness's accounts of a rape and murder are all different........snip
A useful demonstration of this principle in scientific understanding can be found in an article by that name authored by Karl G. Heider.[3] Heider used the term to refer to the effect of the subjectivity of perception on recollection, by which observers of an event are able to produce substantially different but equally plausible accounts of it.

It is named for Akira Kurosawa's film Rashomon, in which a crime witnessed by four individuals is described in four mutually contradictory ways.[4] The film is based on the short story In a Grove by Ryūnosuke Akutagawa, although it is named for another Akutagawa story, Rashōmon.

Plot in books, films and other media may also be developed and described to use this as an underlying idea.

Watch it read the links then try to understand that people can have strongly different reccolections of the same exact thing they witnessed or were involved in..

Further it suggest what we all know that eyewitness accounts are not at all very reliable and yet that doesn't mean people are being intentionally dishonest....

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
modernbeat
I've been told by both a particpant and an organizer that you are not sharing the full story.

I don't know any organizers other than myself who would know anything in particular. (That doesn't mean they don't, I just don't know about it.)

All the racers at the event were emailed a link to the relevant documents last night, approximately an hour after first notifying Matt and Elliott.

http://www.nasarallysport.com/main/node/726

All the inquiries, the protest, the appeal, my report to the court, and the court's response are posted.

I can't recall a more transparent appeal in our little part of the world.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

John; we cut the shit out of the tires as we thought we were allowed to of course and I thought it was a legal service so we changed tires we're not hiding anything at all. we probably it was ours to lose we were minutes ahead and slowed down and still won with no lights we could not have lost our position without hitting something period. our tires were also inflated to 45PSI for one of the 2 stages we got to use them on but none of this matters a bit john.

ALSO: OTHER TEAMS DID SERVICE the difference is that the person who complained about us didn't complain about them BECAUSE WE WERE IN FIRST PLACE AHEAD OF Them the other 10 teams who serviced wrong were not in first place ahead of them, basic stuff you know?

Probably could have pulled off first with slicks on the last 2 stages



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 03:12PM by brakim.

I agree Paulinho... we don't all play by the same rules though, If I saw you putting on tires in an illegal service would I say "hey man fyi illegal change bro shhh don't do that" or would I go "take a pic man hahah they're done now!" ANYONE who knows me even a LITTLE knows I would tell them to stop the illegal service so I could kick their ass the only place that matters one bit to any real driver.. on the stage.. this is a no bs fact as far as I'm concerned - that being said.. again none of this matters. The ONLY thing that pissed me off is that the long overdue expensive countless hours of prep and work victory celebration my team deserved (mainly my guys, not too worried about me.. they work hard for nothing 247) got blown up by an improperly labelled email sup reg, online sup reg and route book.. it was just disappointing. I NOW KNOW many things I would do differently to keep this from happening. lots of little things such as having someone sign our route book next to where it says the type of service as we check in and possibly just using our brains more, that service was only one or two stages after the prior service which was full service so maybe I should have known better but as I said we saw others servicing, route book said service and we had magic tires so hell ya I'm going to have them put on, of course! but at no point did we think we were even 1% in the wrong for doing any of this. we did not need another advantage we had everything we needed, we had luck and my team, my car and an amazing codriver and I happened to be driving well that day it was ours to lose to them at the point that we changed tires, the tire change was only done because we had the tires and we thought we were allowed to, not much else to it man.

This is how we won, lost a steering wheel, over inflated tires (oh but they were cut, no traction because 45psi but who cares they were cut, right? lol car in front of us caught fire for 4 miles, we got a way above avg time on the stage everyone was given a 15:11 on (due to the car on fire in front of us) we had no lights on the night stage. WE STILL WON) THIS is rally. you may continue making excuses as to how you feel we "cheated" John but it's clear to anyone who knows better that we were simply given bad sup regs and route book and none of this was on purpose, our tire change was not needed or done under any knowledge it was wrong, period. I'm also well aware that 90% of the other teams knew it was a fuel only service so we certainly made a mistake along the way but it's a mistake we never should have had the opportunity to make lets be really honest about that. The route book and all sup regs should have said fuel only service does ANYONE disagree with this? I didn't think so.

Oh but sorry guess we didn't win, We lost... theres even a pic of the super naughty tire change.. I must accept defeat..







Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 03:16PM by brakim.

Anders thank you for handling this and dealing with me even though it didn't go our way, I'm well aware I was a pain in your ass for a solid hour that night and I can only apologize for that but I did my best to handle it professionally minus that one time I acted like a little bitch for about 30 seconds and pouted. I'm guessing you also learned not to tell a team that they won until you're certain they won? Still a bit surprised on the handshake and congratulations from the other competitors on our win after you announced it to us only to run off and appeal but I also understand this, I can't say I would or wouldn't have done the same thing and I'm not here to call out the other competitors anyway, the courts ruled and we lost by their findings and thats all there is to it.

either way I'm glad I didn't lay you out in anger for telling us we won then finding out bullshit was going down, not your fault and totally kidding we both know I was only acting a little girly and we're still BFF's, pretty sure you'd kick my ass anyway because you are badass Arm wrestle next event?