Sand Blast 2014 penalty scandal?

Anders -

With regard to criticism of #7 in your "personal note," you may be underestimating your own role in this. From what I understand, you were near and maybe talking to #48 while they changed their tires. That could have caused #7 to not come over and say anything. I was at a weight-minimum event and went straight back to the paddock area when done, because I knew that I wasn't in a trophy position. I was rather surprised to see a top car in there with me, with his trunk open, no less, instead of in line to be weighed. But then I noticed that the driver was chatting with someone high up in the organization, so I ignored it, assuming that nothing bad could be happening under those circumstances. I later learned that what I saw would have been a huge deal if I'd told anyone. You absolutely cannot go off to the paddock before being weighed. My point here is that maybe the two people who saw #48 changing tires also saw you, which is why they said nothing at the time.

I agree with the general idea that folks should talk to each other before throwing paper. ( But I, personally, would not have assumed that such a conversation was guaranteed to work, so I would not have said in a personal note that "no tires would have been changed." ) But you're not a regular person in these situations. Your presence - again, assuming that what I've read above is true - changes a lot.

- Jt



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 04:22PM by Iowa999.

I understand where the blame lays here guys and it's simply an error in sup regs and route book AND also we should have got to the rally earlier and received all of the paperwork almost all other teams obviously had and we should have noted that one of the 4 things given to us said "fuel only" and that there was a major screw up on 3 of the documents. It's not the competitors fault I don't blame them for the issue, maybe it was handled wrong after the fact and during it and maybe it wasn't that doesn't even matter at this point. it's just a bad situation and it had no good outcome for us win or lose on the appeal.

I guess I can just blame you Jt for not saying something when you saw us!!! maybe anders can give you the 10 min penalty and remove it from our time since this was all clearly your fault for not speaking up when you saw us changing tires? lol til next time

PS: looks like we're doing ESPR instead of Norra 1000 (too many issues with logistics for hauling there and back, team manager can't be gone for 2 weeks) see you guys soon!

I assume that you were joking, but I just spent a cigarette's-length of time wondering if I now would behave any differently. To be honest, I doubt it. I'm an internet tiger. I doubt that I'd say anything to anyone in person.

In my defense, I've never thrown paper at anyone, even when I knew that a rule had been broken.

The more relevant question after all this, Matt, is whether you plan to do anything differently next time.

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brakim
we should have got to the rally earlier and received all of the paperwork almost all other teams obviously had and we should have noted that one of the 4 things given to us said "fuel only" and that there was a major screw up on 3 of the documents.

Matt, do you disagree with Ander's assessment here? http://www.nasarallysport.com/results/appeal/2014-Sandblast-Rally/Anders-Green-summary.pdf

It states (emphasis mine):

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Anders Green
2/27/14 or 2/28/14 Registration
#48 Brandenburg/Sherwood checked in at registration, and our database shows they received a printed copy of the Supplemental Regulations and Rally Guide. The printed version of the Supplemental
Regulations they received has a stage schedule notating Service B as “Fuel Only”. The printed version
of the Rally Guide they received has a stage schedule notating Service B as “Fuel Only”.
The printed route book tulips describes the service as “Service B” and has no additional notation

Jt totally kidding bro And sure if someone came up and said "hey moron you can't do that" we would have stopped but we NEVER should have needed to be told that. It's my personal opinion that the email sent to us that said "FINAL SUP REGS" and the online sup regs (the ones still posted, the ones that say SERVICE) and the route book that said SERVICE should have clearly said fuel only. this is my only point, this is what upsets me. the fact it was on ONE piece of paper somewhere that was given to us... I'm not fighting that.. only that its idiotic it was done this way... not properly... on all "final" docs..

I do not disagree with anything he said, I'm sure that he is absolutely right. I can only say that the other 3 official final sups and route books given said SERVICE not fuel only and that I got our team to the rally at 1AM (5 hours before we had to be up to race) and everyone was doing their best to make the race. Codriver was up all night going over all of these documents and quite obviously we missed something at some point and we just trusted that the 3 official docs were right and overlooked the 4th at some point or something... just a bummer like I said ::shrugs::

MB

Matt,
Rallies aren't won on stage times alone, as you are finding out. I'd guess we are all racers at heart and understand the sentiment...BUT...as I mentioned earlier there is a whole other side to the sport. Compliance with that side is also required. You were late to the event, that happens. Your responsibility. You were the only car to not receive the change bulletin, doubtful. I'd guess it just didn't get read and focused on.

Mistakes were made, we're all human, shit happens honestly. We learn, we move forward. I 100% know Anders learned from this, others learned from this, I learned from this. There is value to mistakes.

You can say you didn't benefit from the tire change, but in reality can't prove that. Maybe you would have had a flat with the other tires. Maybe you would have slid off stage and got stuck. Maybe it wouldn't have changed things...all speculation. The biggest lead in the world can all go away on the last transit event.

I will tell you than anytime you perform an unnecessary service, such as changing tires, you run risk of making a mistake, forgetting a bolt, having threads gall, forgetting a hood pin, a crew member get hurt. Lots to potentially go haywire.

Co-driving is more than tending a time card or pushing out of a ditch. The very best co-drivers also have the ability to win an event with a pencil...and that is an admiral quality it its own right.

Chin up little buckaroo, you had a great drive, hopefully it is not the last.

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EricW
Matt, do you disagree with Ander's assessment here?

Doesn't really matter, as the basis of Matt's appeal was not based on printed version. I wrote my summary PRIOR to reading the appeal. Nothing in my summary is "answering" any part of the appeal. Matt could agree with everything in my summary and still submit the same appeal.

If this was black and white, it would have been easy. It wasn't.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Sorry, not trying to pile on.

Matt, see you at ESPR! Tarmac is a wicked equalizer... hope to fight for the win against ya! I'll buy ya a beer and we can chat.

As a serious piece of constructive criticism that I've learned, anything less than 20m for a service is immediately suspect in my brain as "wait, this IS different. Why?" It COULD be a normal service, but 95% of the time, it's not.

Rally on!

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Iowa999
Anders -

With regard to criticism of #7 in your "personal note," you may be underestimating your own role in this.

That's probably true, because I don't think I'm a very important person. I'm wrong about lots of things though.

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From what I understand, you were near and maybe talking to #48 while they changed their tires.

I don't think that's the case (but I could be wrong). I interviewed Matt during the NEXT service and took a video.

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I agree with the general idea that folks should talk to each other before throwing paper. ( But I, personally, would not have assumed that such a conversation was guaranteed to work, ...

Hey, if it didn't work, you would have even more evidence for later paperwork. So you have DOUBLE the motivation to try it.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

We get all of this guys, this case is closed. I believe we've went over everything that was done right and wrong 10 times with all parties involved

Eric - We had a team meeting, we can't make Norra 1000 (haul issues) WE WILL be at ESPR and you WILL LOSE and you WILL BUY ME A BEER, cool man? We'll have a good battle, We just ordered our wheels and tires (6 new wheels and DZ1 tires for $1,700! pretty awesome deal for 18" rubber and wheels! the tires are on clearance on tirerack for 100 > 120!)

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Cosworth
The only thing to learn from this, is that if you see a fellow competitor making a mistake, then let them know instead of taking pictures. There's a lot of camaraderie in rally, so why not help another competitor in a situation like this.

The above is the only post (Correction - and the Report Anders posted!) throughout this entire thread that makes any sense. The Insanity includes this post quoting Paulhino that you are at this moment reading......

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Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 10:18PM by Creech.

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Anders Green

I can't recall a more transparent appeal in our little part of the world.

Anders

I remember the big one back in 2011 with Hanson and Lagemann and later in 2013 with Moyle. I thought those were handled well by RA and very open and transparent. And this one too.

I've always wondered myself, how does one get picked to be on the National Court of Appeal? I realize what the rulebook says "Each member will be chosen for their experience, perspective, and impartiality" but there are lots of people who could be chosen that fit that definition.

Um, no.

Just pulled out the 2013 lspOr schedule.

Service times were: 10/30/30/10 for Friday, 15/30/15 for Saturday.

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EricW
As a serious piece of constructive criticism that I've learned, anything less than 20m for a service is immediately suspect in my brain as "wait, this IS different. Why?" It COULD be a normal service, but 95% of the time, it's not.

Rally on!

press on,

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just a poor, dumb, Michigan navie

I didn't say it was exclusive. It's just anything <20m is a red-light for me that it COULD be something abnormal.

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Anders Green
I can't recall a more transparent appeal in our little part of the world.

It still raises a couple of questions.
Who appointed the appeal committee?
Why was the event steward named to chair the committee? Even without a vote, there is no way he could be seen as being impartial to the appeal of his decision.

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First Rally: 2001
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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.