Sand Blast 2014 penalty scandal?

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brakim
It's my personal opinion that the email sent to us that said "FINAL SUP REGS" and the online sup regs (the ones still posted, the ones that say SERVICE) and the route book that said SERVICE should have clearly said fuel only. this is my only point, this is what upsets me.

MB

You keep making that false statement (it's okay to be your personal opinion but stop beating on it, because it's not true). The final supps, online sups and route book are not the absolute final rules since the rules state that there MAY be changes and there were and they were processed correctly. Many facets of a rally can't be truly finalized until the day of the event. Hence the possibility of extra paper at registration and/or bulletin boards. It's all part of the event.

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Don Kennedy

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Morison
It still raises a couple of questions.

I'm sorry, those questions aren't interesting enough for me to pursue.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

But did you peruse them?

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Anders Green

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Morison
It still raises a couple of questions.

I'm sorry, those questions aren't interesting enough for me to pursue.

Anders

How about one simple answer in the name of transparency.

Does anybody think it is appropriate for the person who's decision was being appealed to be the chair of the protest committee? (Regardless of if he has a vote or not.)
(or for that matter, some one who is at the center of the issue selecting the protest committee members)

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2014 01:30PM by Morison.

Why change a 10 min service that was posted multiple times in multiple places to a fuel only posted in one place? Is this a way for an organizer to check to see if teams are on point? Is this a game played often? 10 min is 10 min whats the big organizer problem that it had too be changed to fuel only? Who made this change? Wheres there voice in this ruling?

Does it really matter if other teams serviced there car? With the normal unwritten policy by Nasa being laid back and not going to hang some one a technicality it sure looks like they did.

It looks like the laid back grass roots Nasa rally for fun has now gone to be on top of your game watch for stupid mind game tricks to take away wins.

Sorry if this sounds comes off mean! This is a long thread about a win takin away because of a last minute change that Im still not clear on why was made?

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johnhuebbe
I've always wondered myself, how does one get picked to be on the National Court of Appeal? I realize what the rulebook says "Each member will be chosen for their experience, perspective, and impartiality" but there are lots of people who could be chosen that fit that definition.

Not as lots as you might think, it turns out. My first two choices both had impartiality conflicts. (Or more precisely, a history that could be perceived as such.) Plus, there are lots of drivers who don't know the operational rules at all, and plenty of codrivers who can't see outside the box of the rules.

Of the three, the "perspective" part is the biggest limiter. Let's imagine a four time WRC champion codriver who has spent the last 10 years exclusively doing WRC events. For unknown reasons, someone suggests he serve on this particular Court. What would he know about grassroots racing? He would have the wrong perspective, so I wouldn't choose him.

If you wanted to get picked, I suppose you could volunteer to at least be considered. It was about 48 hours before all the choosing was done.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Reamer
Why change a 10 min service that was posted multiple times in multiple places to a fuel only posted in one place? Is this a way for an organizer to check to see if teams are on point? Is this a game played often? 10 min is 10 min whats the big organizer problem that it had too be changed to fuel only? Who made this change? Wheres there voice in this ruling?

Does it really matter if other teams serviced there car? With the normal unwritten policy by Nasa being laid back and not going to hang some one a technicality it sure looks like they did.

It looks like the laid back grass roots Nasa rally for fun has now gone to be on top of your game watch for stupid mind game tricks to take away wins.

Sorry if this sounds comes off mean! This is a long thread about a win takin away because of a last minute change that Im still not clear on why was made?

Because it wasn't posted as a full service and then changed. The draft supps didn't have the schedule. The schedule that was posted online before the event said "fuel only."

The only change was that the printed supps included the correct schedule that said "fuel only."

Jared I believe you're mistaken, the online sup regs did say and still say SERVICE not fuel only... it only said Fuel only (to my knowledge and as stated in the the appeal and response) in a printed paper handed out at registration which we DID receive. The problem is that the other 2 "final sup regs" as seen online and via email AND the route book ALL say "SERVICE" not fuel only... this is the issue we had as a team, Although the one form did say it and we could have possibly seen this instead of the other 3 and followed it.. but we got there at 1AM, up to race at 6AM codriver didn't sleep... we did our very best. possibly we missed a step, but not a step we should have been given such an easy opportunity due to what I see as a pretty big error in making the sup regs and route book... I don't think anyone will ever disagree with me on that fact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2014 01:34PM by brakim.

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Reamer
Why change a 10 min service that was posted multiple times in multiple places to a fuel only posted in one place? Is this a way for an organizer to check to see if teams are on point? Is this a game played often? 10 min is 10 min whats the big organizer problem that it had too be changed to fuel only? Who made this change? Wheres there voice in this ruling?

Are you talking about some other rally? Because none of the things in that entire paragraph relate to this issue. There was no 10 minute service, info about the 15 minute service being a "regular service" wasn't posted anywhere, and it wasn't changed to a fuel-only service for some organizer issue. (It's been a fuel only service for years.)

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Reamer
Does it really matter if other teams serviced there car? With the normal unwritten policy by Nasa being laid back and not going to hang some one a technicality it sure looks like they did.

It looks like the laid back grass roots Nasa rally for fun has now gone to be on top of your game watch for stupid mind game tricks to take away wins.

NASA is still laid back and grassroots. That doesn't mean we get to ignore the inquiry/protest/appeal process that exists within our own rule book. That would be silly.

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This is a long thread about a win takin away because of a last minute change that Im still not clear on why was made?

What last minute change are you talking about? Perhaps it's because you think there was a change that this is confusing. Did you read any of this?
http://www.nasarallysport.com/main/node/726
If you have a particular question that isn't covered there, ask it, but "it's not clear" is too vague to be addressed.

Cheers
Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Jard

Because it wasn't posted as a full service and then changed. The draft supps didn't have the schedule. The schedule that was posted online before the event said "fuel only."

The only change was that the printed supps included the correct schedule that said "fuel only."

Jared has it right by my reading of the docs that were handed out at registration. Only full schedule I saw said Fuel Only.

There were flaws in the documentation space time continuum, because the route book did not have a full schedule. So this came down to which holds more water the Supps with a schedule or the route book. And the route book did not have a stage schedule in it as we are used to looking at. It just listed the stages in the order they would be run. So the route book listing of service is just on the sections of "Transit from stage x to service x", etc, etc.

From a historical note this service has always been fuel only since I have been going to SB which is approaching a decade now. Dang I am getting old. Does not help newer competitors.

I think Paul has the right concept here. Everyone could have done things a little differently and we would not be here.

I agree that the one handed out at registration said fuel only, it's the only one that said fuel only and I entirely agree that the one page did say that I've never fought this fact guys.

Going forward I'll obviously be more attentive to any service 30 minutes or under. I should have known better... We just followed the route book. I do see the error in this guys it's not past me, I just believe the route book should have said fuel only.. and both of the sup regs handed out should have as well that's all...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2014 01:46PM by brakim.

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Morison
How about one simple answer in the name of transparency.

Does anybody think it is appropriate for the person who's decision was being appealed to be the chair of the protest committee? (Regardless of if he has a vote or not.)
(or for that matter, some one who is at the center of the issue selecting the protest committee members)

Morison, if you want to make an allegation that someone is dishonest, or lying, or untrustworthy, or unable to be impartial, just man up and say it. Go ahead and use their name, in this case, the people you are casting aspersion on are Dick Paddock and Anders Green. If you want to talk about wrongdoing, or possible wrongdoing, don't waste everyone's time with "the person" and "some one" as if it's a hypothetical.

I know you're just trolling under the guise of concern, so I have little interest going in that direction.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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brakim
I just believe the route book should have said fuel only.. and both of the sup regs handed out should have as well

And I agree. So all is well with the world.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

The only blame lies in God or whomever you believe in. Had that storm not delayed Brakim Racing in getting to the event, this would have never happened. Probably.

I still contend that it is the service crews job to know stuff like this, not the driver or codriver. I take my job as crew chief very seriously when I am crewing. I drink too much beer, eat at weird local places, and always know when, where, and what. It's a shame that so many rallies are moving to centralized service areas, which logistically is probably great and gives me time to go eat a decent meal before service, but navigation added to the challenge for service crews.

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Grant Hughes

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Anders Green

There was no 10 minute service, info about the 15 minute service being a "regular service" wasn't posted anywhere, and it wasn't changed to a fuel-only service for some organizer issue. (It's been a fuel only service for years.)

Anders

Ding ding! In any event, it was the co-driver's fault, especially because if there was a conflict between two different docs, you better go with the more conservative read unless told by an event official otherwise.

I submit the the supp regs control all, and the supp regs last provided to competitor control over prior issuance, and then the official bulletin board comes into play.

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