Let's get political. Gun Debate!

Quote
RWD4ME
I have yet to read one valid argument for why any civilian "needs" multi round weapons.

Supposing that the government took away all weapons that could fire more than one round, just for the sake of discussion. They handed out stiff penalties, and fines for simple possession (trigger lock or not), and a few years down the road... they managed to have collected multi round weapons from all civilians. Sure some peole may hang on to them but if they were ever caught in possession, they would spend some time stamping liscence plates behind tall walls with razor wire.

So no "bad people or people with mental issues" have a multi round firing weapon.

bad people will still get hi-cap mags. even if outlawed. What was the quote? "once you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them."?

Quote
Racinkid13

Quote
RWD4ME
I have yet to read one valid argument for why any civilian "needs" multi round weapons.

Supposing that the government took away all weapons that could fire more than one round, just for the sake of discussion. They handed out stiff penalties, and fines for simple possession (trigger lock or not), and a few years down the road... they managed to have collected multi round weapons from all civilians. Sure some peole may hang on to them but if they were ever caught in possession, they would spend some time stamping liscence plates behind tall walls with razor wire.

So no "bad people or people with mental issues" have a multi round firing weapon.

bad people will still get hi-cap mags. even if outlawed. What was the quote? "once you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them."?

But by outlawing 30 round magazines and the ever popular 2 mags taped together, it makes it easier for law enforement: the see a guy with 1 or 2 30 round magazines, they know he's a criminal and they simply shoot the fucker on the spot.. See? Simple...

The big and important question remains unaddressed: why does USA have so much violence---and as we see here, fantasies about heroic violence? And why so many people who are flat crazy?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
The big and important question remains unaddressed: why does USA have so much violence---and as we see here, fantasies about heroic violence? And why so many people who are flat crazy?

What is very different in the last.... 20-30 years?

Media has changed.

The internet is out there so anyone can be FAMOUS.

The Family unit has for too many been blown up.

Two parents; raising their children and taking a real interest in how they grow up to be good productive adults is too often missing.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Quote
john vanlandingham
.......The big and important question remains unaddressed: why does USA have so much violence---and as we see here, fantasies about heroic violence? ......

Talk about "fantasies of heroic violence".

Prior to last Friday I saw MANY pre-Christmas TV ads for some video game called "Black Ops <something>". I was horrified by the depictions of violence; and this was regular commercial TV for only a few seconds.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Racinkid13

Quote
RWD4ME
I have yet to read one valid argument for why any civilian "needs" multi round weapons.

Supposing that the government took away all weapons that could fire more than one round, just for the sake of discussion. They handed out stiff penalties, and fines for simple possession (trigger lock or not), and a few years down the road... they managed to have collected multi round weapons from all civilians. Sure some peole may hang on to them but if they were ever caught in possession, they would spend some time stamping liscence plates behind tall walls with razor wire.

So no "bad people or people with mental issues" have a multi round firing weapon.

bad people will still get hi-cap mags. even if outlawed. What was the quote? "once you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them."?

But by outlawing 30 round magazines and the ever popular 2 mags taped together, it makes it easier for law enforement: the see a guy with 1 or 2 30 round magazines, they know he's a criminal and they simply shoot the fucker on the spot.. See? Simple...

The big and important question remains unaddressed: why does USA have so much violence---and as we see here, fantasies about heroic violence? And why so many people who are flat crazy?

Come on John, you're a smart guy. Shooting someone simply on the basis of what they have on their person? Are you going to trust that the cops make a snap decision on whether or not someone has a 30 round magazine? What if it turns out to be a twenty or ten or legal magazine? And even mall ninjas don't tap magazines together anymore. They're much more high speed low drag.

---

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

Quote
Jens

Quote
john vanlandingham
.......The big and important question remains unaddressed: why does USA have so much violence---and as we see here, fantasies about heroic violence? ......

Talk about "fantasies of heroic violence".

Prior to last Friday I saw MANY pre-Christmas TV ads for some video game called "Black Ops <something>". I was horrified by the depictions of violence; and this was regular commercial TV for only a few seconds.

No shit. I can't even watch a football game with my kids without an "OOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! GUNS!!!!!!!!" video game commercial coming on with metric tons of digital blood splatter...

Firearms are a wonderful tool for rapidly putting a metal projectile into something you need to destroy. And hell yes it can be fun to empty a magazine rapidly into a row of tin cans or other target. But I don't want to have to kill a living thing with one unless I have no other option. Although I would've rather used a shotgun on that chicken my dog maimed last summer than the dull meat cleaver I had to use....

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Quote
Vorpal_Rally

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Racinkid13

Quote
RWD4ME
I have yet to read one valid argument for why any civilian "needs" multi round weapons.

Supposing that the government took away all weapons that could fire more than one round, just for the sake of discussion. They handed out stiff penalties, and fines for simple possession (trigger lock or not), and a few years down the road... they managed to have collected multi round weapons from all civilians. Sure some peole may hang on to them but if they were ever caught in possession, they would spend some time stamping liscence plates behind tall walls with razor wire.

So no "bad people or people with mental issues" have a multi round firing weapon.

bad people will still get hi-cap mags. even if outlawed. What was the quote? "once you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them."?

But by outlawing 30 round magazines and the ever popular 2 mags taped together, it makes it easier for law enforement: the see a guy with 1 or 2 30 round magazines, they know he's a criminal and they simply shoot the fucker on the spot.. See? Simple...

The big and important question remains unaddressed: why does USA have so much violence---and as we see here, fantasies about heroic violence? And why so many people who are flat crazy?

Come on John, you're a smart guy. Shooting someone simply on the basis of what they have on their person? Are you going to trust that the cops make a snap decision on whether or not someone has a 30 round magazine? What if it turns out to be a twenty or ten or legal magazine? And even mall ninjas don't tap magazines together anymore. They're much more high speed low drag.

Hard to mistake a Brown Bess for a Kalshnikov. Of course if the cops are also armed with a Brown Bess like the founders intended people should be allowed to own, the cops too would think hard before discharging their weapon..
Slowing down things in a crisis is a good thing. Guns escalate things too toooo frequently, regardless if its a baddie coming in the bathroom window hopped up on meth, or a gangster in Blue loosing it in Roid Rage (that's what cops I know call the Steroid induced tantrums in cops).

Think, you have one clean shot you'll be careful..

Or if you're a madman and say carry 2 long guns and a few pistolets you can do only so much damage.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Right, it's settled then. We'll do as pirates did. Two flintlock pistols, and a cutlass!

AVAST ME HEARTIES!

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

You better train real hard for that one life saving shot, and in a truly life threatening situation you'll prob still miss unless the person threatening your life is within arms reach, in which case they'll be too close to even put a musket between you and them.

I think a big part of the problem is lack of consequences for kids going up, parents let enough little things slide and kids lose respect for the bigger things.

---

Less talk. More rally.

It's obvious that theres some very pro gun people responding to this thread.

A lot of people are stubborn and idealisitc of what they've grown accustomed to. Once you embrace a gun culture I image it's difficult to embrace change, regardless of the circumstance or motivation.

What's the real point here?

It isn't pit bulls, home defense, hunting, the failure of the mental health system, etc?

It has nothing to do with the Second Ammendment. That argument goes out the window with, the federal punishment for felon gun possession is up to 10 years in prison. Where does it state in the constitution that a criminal doesn't have the right to bare arms? The point is, it doesn't! So the modern day interpretation of the constitution is selective and can change based on preference and mandate.

What's the real point here?

Sandy Hook Elementary School!

Have you stopped to think about what the effects are of 100+ rounds fired from an AR15 at close range into school hallways and class rooms look like? The blood of adults on hallway floors, walls, ceilings. Adults that gave their lives to protect children. 20 lifeless bodies of 6 and 7 year olds strewn about class rooms with multiple gun shot wounds, from close range. Were they torso, back, limb, head shots etc? What does that look like? Have you stopped to imagine the carnage and the chaos?

It makes me sick and the thoughts make me feel nauseas.

If you're a pro gun person, what personal sacrifice in terms of your personal gun ownership are you willing to make to " help" prevent something like this from this happening again?

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Vorpal_Rally

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Racinkid13

Quote
RWD4ME
I have yet to read one valid argument for why any civilian "needs" multi round weapons.

Supposing that the government took away all weapons that could fire more than one round, just for the sake of discussion. They handed out stiff penalties, and fines for simple possession (trigger lock or not), and a few years down the road... they managed to have collected multi round weapons from all civilians. Sure some peole may hang on to them but if they were ever caught in possession, they would spend some time stamping liscence plates behind tall walls with razor wire.

So no "bad people or people with mental issues" have a multi round firing weapon.

bad people will still get hi-cap mags. even if outlawed. What was the quote? "once you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them."?

But by outlawing 30 round magazines and the ever popular 2 mags taped together, it makes it easier for law enforement: the see a guy with 1 or 2 30 round magazines, they know he's a criminal and they simply shoot the fucker on the spot.. See? Simple...

The big and important question remains unaddressed: why does USA have so much violence---and as we see here, fantasies about heroic violence? And why so many people who are flat crazy?

Come on John, you're a smart guy. Shooting someone simply on the basis of what they have on their person? Are you going to trust that the cops make a snap decision on whether or not someone has a 30 round magazine? What if it turns out to be a twenty or ten or legal magazine? And even mall ninjas don't tap magazines together anymore. They're much more high speed low drag.

Hard to mistake a Brown Bess for a Kalshnikov. Of course if the cops are also armed with a Brown Bess like the founders intended people should be allowed to own, the cops too would think hard before discharging their weapon..
Slowing down things in a crisis is a good thing. Guns escalate things too toooo frequently, regardless if its a baddie coming in the bathroom window hopped up on meth, or a gangster in Blue loosing it in Roid Rage (that's what cops I know call the Steroid induced tantrums in cops).

Think, you have one clean shot you'll be careful..

Or if you're a madman and say carry 2 long guns and a few pistolets you can do only so much damage.

Here's what the Roid Rangers in the "city" 4 miles from where I grew up just got:



OK, not quite, but still, the Department of Homeland Insecurity decided that since Keene, NH, has a pumpkin festival that attracts some 70,000 visitors each October, they could use one of these $260,000 machines:







Guess the Loudon, NH, PD needs two or three for the each of the Winston/Nextel/Sprint/Bob's Country Bunker Cup races they run there each year.

Not quite sure where this beer-fueled rant is going, but shit, since the very town I lived in had its chief of police "save the day" in a shooting at the high school 200 yards from my house (man, I picked the right/wrong time to take a Ferris Bueller day), but then go down in disgrace as it was discovered his Vietnam POW claims (and free POW license plates) were about as real as the Chuck Norris "Missing in Action" movies. The same chief was trying to arrest me because I had a dispute with the recycling center administrator over a couple trash bags worth of astroturf carpeting I didn't think warranted a $5 or $10 charge for disposal, and they were both pissed at my father over small town political stuff.

As a result, I have trust issues with government right down to the small town level, and whenever I see government (big G or little g) escalate their armaments and powers, I get nervous. Tea Baggers want to make sure you have no safety net if the fecal matter impacts the spinning blades, and the left doesn't want you to be able to defend yourself from the tea baggers' hatred for life once it leaves the womb.

I think government should exist to basically protect the little person from getting effed in the eh (at least without lube) from the big person [corporations are people!!!!! Right, Willard?] who can afford to protect him/herself.

Essentially, our culture is screwed up, perhaps irreparably so.

I should probably hit delete instead of post, so go easy on me, I've had a few brews.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Quote
RWD4ME
It's obvious that theres some very pro gun people responding to this thread.

A lot of people are stubborn and idealisitc of what they've grown accustomed to. Once you embrace a gun culture I image it's difficult to embrace change, regardless of the circumstance or motivation.

What's the real point here?

It isn't pit bulls, home defense, hunting, the failure of the mental health system, etc?

It has nothing to do with the Second Ammendment. That argument goes out the window with, the federal punishment for felon gun possession is up to 10 years in prison. Where does it state in the constitution that a criminal doesn't have the right to bare arms? The point is, it doesn't! So the modern day interpretation of the constitution is selective and can change based on preference and mandate.

What's the real point here?

Sandy Hook Elementary School!

Have you stopped to think about what the effects are of 100+ rounds fired from an AR15 at close range into school hallways and class rooms look like? The blood of adults on hallway floors, walls, ceilings. Adults that gave their lives to protect children. 20 lifeless bodies of 6 and 7 year olds strewn about class rooms with multiple gun shot wounds, from close range. Were they torso, back, limb, head shots etc? What does that look like? Have you stopped to imagine the carnage and the chaos?

It makes me sick and the thoughts make me feel nauseas.

If you're a pro gun person, what personal sacrifice in terms of your personal gun ownership are you willing to make to " help" prevent something like this from this happening again?

I damn near puked when I heard the death toll from Sandy Hook. This hit me harder than 9/11.

If you want to own some firepower, you need to have some real security. That means a real safe, not some Harbor Freight POS I can beat open in 10 minutes. You want a bedside piece? Get one of those biometric mini-safes that takes certain taps from certain hands.

This is really tough. Part of me says get rid of the firearms, but my experience says that if you can't trust those who are sworn to protect you (and/or live somewhere where their reaction time is best measured with a Mayan calendar), you need to be able to at least attempt to keep yourself safe from some meth head intent on ruining your life.

Who knows, I'm probably on some watch list...tonight the local PD (in its twice weekly patrol of my street) slowed way down by my house, sped up, drove to the town line 1/2 mile away, turned around, slowed to almost a stop by my house, sped up when I opened the front door, then slowed down again a few hundred feet up the road, then sped up again.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. Or somebody's complained about my chickens crossing the road to get to the other side.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Busy day... Early I was working on respose that went something like this:

The Canadian long gun registry did virtually nothing to negatively affect law abiding citizens (other than a bit of their time). It required filling out some paperwork. There are several guns in my parents’ house, paperwork, and it was done (I don’t keep any in my house, as I live in the city, no need). You have to register your car, why not your gun? As for its effectiveness in reducing crime, that is probably low, however it has been noted that many police jurisdictions access the data prior to responding to domestic disputes, home intrusions, etc, and find the information useful. Did it cost a lot, sure, more then they figured, sure. What is the cost of maintaining the databases of cars???

As for the sports cars kill… Yes, people are killed in car accidents, but the difference is intent. An assault rifle or a hand gun has a very specific intent behind it. Herein is one of my issues, why are we perpetuating a society of violent intent?

Again, I am not for banning guns, obviously not, and my single shot comments do not mean banning repeating firearms. I have several bolt actions, levers, and pumps. My point is the intent of those firearms are for hunting. The intent of large capacity magazines, hand guns, assault rifles etc are killing people. By promoting or encouraging their use in a “hobby” fashion is promoting the glorification of killing people. You may not at first think that, but really contemplate what it is about. “Target practice” with your Bushmaster, playing Call of Duty, even Paintball, is all a glorification of killing each other in some extent.

And Pitbulls are savages at birth… that is what they were bred for! Sure not all are, and not all are used that way, but lineage goes back to attack dogs, and fighting dogs.

From wiki (yeah yeah, whatever but I don’t have time to pull up real citations)

The American Staffordshire Terrier was the product of 19th century interbreeding between bulldogs and terriers that produced the "bull-and-terrier dog," "Half and Half," and at times "pit dog" or "pit bullterrier," the last named becoming the "Staffordshire Bull Terrier" in England. The bulldog of that time differed from the modern Bulldog, having a full muzzle and a long, tapering tail. There is some debate whether the White English Terrier, the Black and Tan Terrier, the Fox Terrier, or some combination thereof were used. These dogs began to find their way into America as early as 1870, where they became known as Pit Dog, Pit Bull Terrier, later American Bull Terrier, and still later as a Yankee terrier.[19] They were imported primarily, but not exclusively, for pit fighting.[20]

And this just goes to help illustrate my point, we still have an underlying issue of glorifying violence. And herein is MY issue with current gun laws in the US (even though I don’t live there). There is a gun culture that just simple does not exist in places with more control. The gun culture is a part and parcel with the glorification of violence. Call of Duty, Black Ops, yadda yadda. Help to reduce the violent outbursts by limiting the access to the tools designed with the intent to kill.

I would rather not contribute to the society of violent behavior, and teach my daughter that Daddy doesn’t need a gun to “defend” our house given the incredibly remote chance of an actual altercation that necessitates the use of firearm, vs perpetuating a societal wrong. And maybe, just maybe, I feel that way because here, we have more restrictions. Since I certainly did not feel nearly as safe living in sweet old Seattle knowing a co-worker had a concealed weapon on him at times, and if he could -someone I would not consider stable enough or well enough trained- who else did??? Scared the hell out of me.

Anyway, I didn't get finished... to busy...

Reading through todays comments, I went from saddened to less sad (thanks Gene you lifted my spirts for a second or so), to sadder (sorry Jay, that was you)... our world is really f-upped if you feel need to carry a gun...

edit:
Andrew, your brew spew made me chuckle... thanks! Cheers!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2012 11:52PM by Mad Matt F.

When Brent was yong we lived in town. I got worried about having the house robbed and stupidly sold a dozen guns off. Now that Brent is grown and likes shooting I sure wish I had them back.

What would I sacrifice to prevent another tragedy? Nothing really. There isn't anything I could do personally to prevent such an event. That is the reality of it all. I'll happily not buy high capacity mags..I wouldn't likely buy them anyway. I will gladly pay some more taxes somewhere to help with school security or mental health issues. Beyond that what can any of us do personally to prevent another tragedy? If we don't cause it personally what else is there?

As a society we can start changing things now, but nothing is going to stop violence over night, next year or next decade for that matter.

It sure is a horrible thing to have happen and nothing will change that.

Quote
heymagic

As a society we can start changing things now, but nothing is going to stop violence over night, next year or next decade for that matter.

yep Gene, you're right. But man, we gotta start soon!