Let's get political. Gun Debate!

I would just like to point out the dark humor in Steve's signature... considering the current events most likely sparking this thread...

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

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SteveL

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john vanlandingham
the Second Amendment is sacred text. The Founders said we need people to be armed so they can be part of a militia, and so be it. When they said armed they were of course referring to what they knew and so obviously that is what should be allowed in a strict reading.
Therefore this is what should be allowed:


black powder made and mixed as per 1791, smooth bore, flint fire.

Ther rest, well times have changed, they had no intention to allow uncontrolled unlimited mass weaponry..

Holy Text must be upheald as written and as intended.

The problem with your argument is the fact that technology has moved the arms race
towards weapons that have better range, and precision. Considering that the weapon
you've chosen to display, when the second amendment was writen, the general public
could own the exact same weapons. Are you suggesting that is what the GP should
only be allowed to own now?? Oh I know you're going to throw in the "Organised
Militia" card, but there in lies the rub, the second amendment is about protecting
ourselves against the government. Said "Organised Militia" can be a force that is
in disagreement with our present overlords...

The point is the Founders thought that the weapons they thought people had a right to bear---(so that they could be part of a local militia---because of the distrust of a STANDING ARMY--and in most of the country no law enforcement outside of larger towns)---was a smooth bore, black powder musket flint lock that could fire between 1 and 4 shots per minute---the Prussians with rigorous, brutal training managed 4/min, most armies could do 3 with training----and with a lethal accurate range of mere yards (yeah yeah I know SOME people could occasional hit things at a couple of hundred yards but even at 50 yards most people couldn't with lots of training----- is what should be allowed..
It will still work for short range Home Defense and hunting---they managed to hunt back then.

And since we now do have--against the wishes of the Founding Fathers---a massive expensive way overkill standing Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard and Hair Farce, as well as a huge, aggressive, steroid hopped up local, County and State Police forces, as well as the National Guard, and unless you believe ALL of them would blindly obey some madman dictators orders to supress all our legal Rights---what do ordinary people need anything more than some flintlock smoothbore pistols and muskets?

Be a lot harder for maniacs to slaughter people if they had to:


move the cock to the half-cock position;
tear the cartridge open with his teeth;
pour a small amount of powder into the flashpan;
close the frizzen to keep the priming charge in the pan;
pour the rest of the powder in the cartridge down the muzzle and stuffed the cartridge in after it;
take out his ramrod and ram the ball (still in the cartridge) all the way to the breech;
replace the ramrod; and
shoulder the weapon.

In case you are unfamiliar with the parts:


Across a room it'll still poke a good size hole in a burglar that will hurt.

Who needs more and why?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

actually im pretty sure we have had plenty of student deaths due to fire in this country since the early 1800s

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john vanlandingham

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Jay
How many kids have been kiiled by fires in schools in this country? I had to look it up. Zero. How do we protect kids from fires in schools? By making school buildings fire resistant, by installing sprinklers in every ceiling, by holding fire drills, etc etc etc.
Or, we could protect kids from fires in schools by banning matches. It's certainly a simpler solution.
But I'm real glad we don't do it that way because it is blindingly stupidly obvious that it wouldn't fucking work.
This county never ever used to have school shootings. We used to have school shooting teams, after school hunting where the rifle sits in the locker till bell ring, and never a problem, till very recently. There's no reason to debate guns. Guns are a straw man. The problem lies elsewhere and I think most people know it.

Well Jay, now that there's thousands of twisted fucked up psychotics running loose--who can easily get firearms and slaughter lots of people.....
what do you suggest we do?

When I was a kid, they didn't hand out matches willy nilly---but I could buy 3 boxes of .22LR every 3-4 days at 10 no questions asked.

But times are changed and people are changed and paranoia is rampant.

It's not paranoia John, I've had my garage robbed once (before meeting my wife), and the house broken into while my wife was still in it twice. We have also had issues with a sexual predator. I purchased a shotgun for my wife immediately after the first time when she found a bum rummaging through our kitchen. The second time, not only was my wife much more stable, but the cocking of the shotgun was all it took for the robber to change his mind. It also gave her comfort when we had issues with the sexual predator (who thankfully took his own life before I got the chance).

Whats worse, is all these instances where in nicer areas. When I was single I lived in several ghettos, including 9th ward of New Orleans and also in Lake Charles Louisiana. Never had an issue there.

I'm away from home quite a bit, and it is a wonderful comfort knowing that my wife can handle her own. I would like to purchase an AR at some point. Not only for use hunting, but also because it will hold its value. The kids will be trained in gun safety at some point, but will never have access to anything more than a BB gun till the appropriate age. It would piss me off to no end to have my right to not only bear arms but to raise my children properly taken away due to other peoples negligence.

I'm near done here. I'm still very much too pissed off that monsters in human form have killed kids, and that too many others want to capitalize on that tragedy to thier own ends.
The "founders only meant the 2nd to apply to muskets" argument doesn't work. The typical rifle that the typical farmer owned was of a higher standard than the massproduced military issue, and as early as the 1790's, there *were* repeating arms, (no they didn't work all that well but they existed) but they didn't say "shall not be infringed UNLESS somebody later decides that enough is too much"...
The 1847 Jennings rifle held 20 rounds, the 1847 Volcanic held 30, the Winchester 1866 had a magazine capacity of 13, but I digress.
There were no radios, internet, or prettymuch any other mass communications technology when they ratified the 1st amendment, either. Hitler used mass communications to foment genocide. Anything can be misused. Either treat all the amendments equally with regard to intent and technology march, or admit hypocrisy and be done with it.
Simple solutions won't work. That's all.

Oh yeah and after much digging I found one fire at a private school in the '50's that killed. But of the many many thousands of fires at schools from 05 to 09, with some scary fraction of those being intentional, no one's died. We use a strategy against school fires that works, and we can still buy matches (and gas, and jugs, and lots of other scary combos that would be more harmful than an ar15). Hanging a no-guns sign at the office door as a strategy against school shootings, and trying to take away scary guns from people, patantly does not.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2012 08:29PM by Jay.

Mental illness needs to be dealt with in a better fashion. Not sure how to do that...I fix cars only. Guns aren't the evil, they are a tool being mis-used. I have guns, always had guns, been shooting since age 6. Kids took guns to school during hunting season when I grew up.

But we have a problem, the world has a problem Many countries are experiencing mass violence against both crowds and schools. Knives and bombs even ricin have all been used effectively.

On the other hand I (AR15 owner) don't really see the need for anything over a 10-15 rd magazine. 30rd clips for Glocks aren't needed. 30 rd 223's aren't needed. I'm sure a clever guy could swap my 9mm S7W from a 14 rd to 7 or 8. Citizens rarely get into an actual fire fight were large numbers of bullets are needed. Large capacity clips could be kept and registered at gun clubs as a fully automatic weapons in some areas for target practice and shooting competitions. We can't really do much about what is on the streets now, but we could slow the tide for future generations.

And put a choke hold on the frickin media bastards that have to sensationalize everything.

SOmebody posted a very insightful post on another forum...

Good question. The UK has FAR lower gun violence than we do (2010 statistics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world with 0.22 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants compared to the United States' 9.0 and to Germany's 1.1.[3]

but they are still an extremely violent country (2009)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-c...

The United Kingdom is the violent crime capital of Europe and has one of the highest rates of violence in the world, worse even than America, according to new research.

By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent 7:00AM BST 02 Jul 2009

Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power.
The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

A breakdown of the statistics, which were compiled into league tables by the Conservatives, revealed that violent crime in the UK had increased from 652,974 offences in 1998 to more than 1.15 million crimes in 2007.

It means there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the UK, making it the most violent place in Europe.

Austria is second, with a rate of 1,677 per 100,000 people, followed by Sweden, Belgium, Finland and Holland.

By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000 population.

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heymagic
Mental illness needs to be dealt with in a better fashion. Not sure how to do that...I fix cars only. Guns aren't the evil, they are a tool being mis-used. I have guns, always had guns, been shooting since age 6. Kids took guns to school during hunting season when I grew up.

But we have a problem, the world has a problem Many countries are experiencing mass violence against both crowds and schools. Knives and bombs even ricin have all been used effectively.

On the other hand I (AR15 owner) don't really see the need for anything over a 10-15 rd magazine. 30rd clips for Glocks aren't needed. 30 rd 223's aren't needed. I'm sure a clever guy could swap my 9mm S7W from a 14 rd to 7 or 8. Citizens rarely get into an actual fire fight were large numbers of bullets are needed. Large capacity clips could be kept and registered at gun clubs as a fully automatic weapons in some areas for target practice and shooting competitions. We can't really do much about what is on the streets now, but we could slow the tide for future generations.

And put a choke hold on the frickin media bastards that have to sensationalize everything.

Haven't I spoken with you about making sense before?

Don't want to have to bring this up again.. Go back and tell us about how you're going to Defend the constiution against a tyrannical Gubbymint Boogey man platoon---And zombies, throw in some zombies..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Zombies can be defeated with a gentle application of a Sooper Bitchin 50mm insert up along side the haid..

Adam.. Fantastic post. And Mexico has similar gun laws to England, but we all know how thats working for them

Gene: Makes some sense, but really, I just don't think smaller clips is going to do anything at all. I can change a clip pronto. But I also don't need a 30round clip. I just don't see such a law changing anything.

So the spirit of compromise is dead it seems, nobody thinks sticking to the weapons the Framer's were clearly intending to allow so people can still be armed, but reducing the ease that even mentally not 100% can murder piles of people is a worthwhile compromise..

The normal "I want MY toys" prevails..
'Merika, fuck yeah.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Still wrapping my head around the shooting.

Don't like wholesale bannination of weapons, because then they're only black market items.

I live where there isn't much hope of a sub 30 minute police response for a good portion of the day, so it's kind of foolish NOT to have a firearm to defend yourself. Some punks decided to go ultra violence on a woman and her daughter just 15 minutes away from here a couple years back, hacked a woman to death with a machete and nearly killed her daughter. I want the ability to defend my family and property.

I've also had a local police force be actively hostile toward my family due to political bullshit, so I do have trust issues there. Hell, I've lost count of the number of lawsuits going on between my town and former police officers and state investigations, etc. Who can you trust when you dial 911? Sorry if it seems paranoid, it's just reality here.

I haven't figured out a perfect, or even a pretty good solution yet (perfect being the enemy of the good and all that). I do know these violent rampages need to stop.

Perhaps funneling our "War on Drugs" law enforcement and incarceration money (at the very least the marijuana part) into our health care system and working more to treat mental illness would be a good first step. What is causing these people to decide to (because they didn't "snap", you don't have a thousand rounds and multiple weapons on you unless your attack is premeditated) commit ultra violence?

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

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frumby
Adam.. Fantastic post. And Mexico has similar gun laws to England, but we all know how thats working for them

That was just me quoting somebody else.

You know what I take from it though? There are a lot of people who are killed with guns in the US that I am probably happy are dead. In the grand scheme of things, the ratio of innocents to non-innocents getting it is probably pretty good. Same reason I don't care if thugs have guns, they are probably going to kill each other with them before they come after me.

Of course, your society is also just plain wierd. It's like the whole "ghetto" thing. Ya, MAYBE Vancouver and Toronto have ghetto-ish places, but they still pale in comparison to some of the places you guys have down south. It's a completely different world across the border... probably 'cause you guys say things like selika :p

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HiTempguy

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frumby
Adam.. Fantastic post. And Mexico has similar gun laws to England, but we all know how thats working for them

That was just me quoting somebody else.

You know what I take from it though? There are a lot of people who are killed with guns in the US that I am probably happy are dead. In the grand scheme of things, the ratio of innocents to non-innocents getting it is probably pretty good. Same reason I don't care if thugs have guns, they are probably going to kill each other with them before they come after me.

Of course, your society is also just plain wierd. It's like the whole "ghetto" thing. Ya, MAYBE Vancouver and Toronto have ghetto-ish places, but they still pale in comparison to some of the places you guys have down south. It's a completely different world across the border... probably 'cause you guys say things like selika :p

Hey Adam the typical murder victim in the USa, as with the other industrialized world in not some scum, its the ex-wife or ex-girlfiend and maybe her kids and new hubby/boyfriend. then the jerks kill themselves.
Over 85%.

The so called "liberal" media which some suggest is mainly the commercial media and movies and TV have filled most peoples' head with the idea that its most baddie on baddie murders. Like nearly everything in popular culture, its wrong..
Wanna re-think if you're " am probably happy are dead. "

Re mental health diagnosis and treatment: that costs money and there's no profit. Taxes are evil! They're taking my moniez, it's all mine! nobody ever did anything for ME! why should I pay for some other loser's mental health care...Mental health is not a right, it's a privilege! Government is wasteful...We should privatise mental health, that'd be the most effcient thing. The Miracle of the marketplace.
etc etc
blah blah,

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
A glib statement "other means" is just blather.
Knives, swords, bricks, fists they are less sure of a kill, risky for the attacker and all you need for escape is some little distance...

You sure about that? The worst killing in a school in the USA was done by a nut who was pissed about not getting re-elected or some ish.... He used Dynamite.

Those bent on killing will find a way. Diesel and fertilizer was used effectively to make quite a mess.

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun