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Let's get political. Gun Debate!

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Dazed_Driver
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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 12:44AM
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JohnLane
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john vanlandingham
A glib statement "other means" is just blather.
Knives, swords, bricks, fists they are less sure of a kill, risky for the attacker and all you need for escape is some little distance...

You sure about that? The worst killing in a school in the USA was done by a nut who was pissed about not getting re-elected or some ish.... He used Dynamite.

Those bent on killing will find a way. Diesel and fertilizer was used effectively to make quite a mess.

That. Like I said, there are other very easy ways to kill lots of people.



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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 12:45AM
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JohnLane
Quote
john vanlandingham
A glib statement "other means" is just blather.
Knives, swords, bricks, fists they are less sure of a kill, risky for the attacker and all you need for escape is some little distance...

You sure about that? The worst killing in a school in the USA was done by a nut who was pissed about not getting re-elected or some ish.... He used Dynamite.

Those bent on killing will find a way. Diesel and fertilizer was used effectively to make quite a mess.

Yeah yeah, whatever Lane, that happens every other month. How could we overlook that?
The illogic that you sort use, typical false premise "We can't stop it all, that means we can't even try to do anything" is tired. And lame. Guess Rush didn't tell you what to think about good enough.



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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 12:45AM
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john vanlandingham
Re mental health diagnosis and treatment: that costs money and there's no profit. Taxes are evil! They're taking my moniez, it's all mine! nobody ever did anything for ME! why should I pay for some other loser's mental health care...Mental health is not a right, it's a privilege! Government is wasteful...We should privatise mental health, that'd be the most effcient thing. The Miracle of the marketplace.
etc etc
blah blah,

You recall why the crazies got turned loose.... The Courts did that....

A dollar in a bet says that we'd see a net savings in tax dollars by keeping the crazies medicated and managed rather then dealing with them in via the Criminal Justice system.

Our friends in Government are not starved for money.... Of course if you want to give them more.... Do!



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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 12:56AM
Jason,

High capacity magazines afford a deadly hail of uninterrupted fire. Gun jamming has saved many lives lately but low count mags may be helpful. Yes you can change a clip, but doing so requires realizing you are out of ammo, dropping your eyes, finding another clip, orienting the clip properly, loading clip successfully and , depending on the gun, refreshing the chamber. Even pro shooters fumble clips on tuned hot rod guns. With an amatuer shooter it has to work in the crowds favor. Not a cure but I think it would be potential help.

Guns and gun owners are an easy, definitive target. Mental illness is much more difficult and people like the easy button. Storms a coming.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 01:05AM
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Dazed_Driver
Quote
JohnLane
Quote
john vanlandingham
A glib statement "other means" is just blather.
Knives, swords, bricks, fists they are less sure of a kill, risky for the attacker and all you need for escape is some little distance...

You sure about that? The worst killing in a school in the USA was done by a nut who was pissed about not getting re-elected or some ish.... He used Dynamite.

Those bent on killing will find a way. Diesel and fertilizer was used effectively to make quite a mess.

That. Like I said, there are other very easy ways to kill lots of people.

That, like I said, you're so naive its pitiful...

The subject isn't if keyboard fantasy boys can imagine all kinds of ways that somebody else could easily kill people, the subject is how easy it is for the imbeciles and mental cases who are actually--ya know like real life-n-stuff, currently killing lots of people. Thousands annually.. now and every year....every day..
FBI:
Firearms were used in 67.8 percent of the nation’s murders, 41.3 percent of robberies, and 21.2 percent of aggravated assaults (data on weapons used during forcible rapes is not collected).

14,103 in 2010----13,913 in 2011.
by weapon:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20

gee no data for diesel and fertilizer bombs, those oafs, how could they overlook that?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-10



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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 01:08AM
And if it were 1306 all the murders would be with dirks, daggers, swords, axes, and hammers! BAN THEM!



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 01:36AM
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JohnLane
Quote
john vanlandingham
Re mental health diagnosis and treatment: that costs money and there's no profit. Taxes are evil! They're taking my moniez, it's all mine! nobody ever did anything for ME! why should I pay for some other loser's mental health care...Mental health is not a right, it's a privilege! Government is wasteful...We should privatise mental health, that'd be the most effcient thing. The Miracle of the marketplace.
etc etc
blah blah,

You recall why the crazies got turned loose.... The Courts did that....

Yes I recall, at least for the State of California. it was much the same elsewhere.
You couldn't possibly recall since you were either not born or were an infant....
Here's an overview since Rush didn't tell you:
http://www.pendari.com/dmh/books/funding_publicmental_health/files/dmh_funding.pdf

Quote

Introduction
The history of the mental health budget in California and in Los Angeles County is the story of
balancing acts and budget shortfalls in a system with continually changing moral and financial
burdens. As philosophies of care have evolved at the State level, LAC-DMH has struggled
to meet new mandates, at the same time as it has faced rising costs and demands for care.
Responding to reform efforts by the legislature and the voters, the County has been forced
to patch services together to meet the eligibility and use guidelines of categorical, reimbursement,
and special revenue sources. Despite repeated efforts at reform, the funding and
provision of these services remain inadequate in the face of the desperate need.

Deinstitutionalization and the Transfer of Responsibility

The early years of the mental health system in California were characterized by state-run
psychiatric hospitalization. People with severe mental illness were offered little hope for
recovery, and many were placed indefinitely in these institutions. The first such facility –
Stockton State Hospital – opened in 1853. By the end of 1957, a total of 14 state hospitals
housed a population of 36,319.
In the early 1950s, however, the introduction of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) and its sister
drugs opened up new possibilities for treating severe mental illness in the community. In
response to this trend, California legislators enacted the1957 Short-Doyle Act, which
stipulated major changes in the funding responsibility and provision of mental health care.
The legislation was based in the idea that, with most mental illness could be treated with
psychoactive drugs in the community and that increased availability of community services
would encourage people to voluntarily seek treatment earlier and achieve a fuller and more
rapid recovery. The bill provided 50% matching state funds to cities or counties for most
mental health programs. In 1963, the State increased its match for local Short-Doyle programs
to 75%, and broadened the types of programs that were eligible for state funding.
By 1967, about 87% of the state population had access to local Short-Doyle programs.
In 1968, the pivotal Lanterman-Petris-Short Act (LPS) became the aggressive next step
in shifting to community-based care. The law required that a judicial hearing be held to
determine whether a person could be involuntarily hospitalized, greatly reducing the
frequency of such commitments. In addition, LPS required all counties in California with
populations over 100,000 to establish mental health programs, and the law increased the
state funding match for local programs to 90%. The Reagan and subsequent state
administrations promoted the trend to community-based care by closing nine state
hospitals; only five remain in operation today.
Between 1957 and 1984, the California state
hospital population dropped 84%. Together, these developments placed the primary
clinical responsibility for mental health care on the counties, which were forced to rely for
the bulk of their funding on the State.
The envisioned success of this “deinstitutionalization” rested largely on the assumption that
as hospitals closed, the funds saved from their closure would “follow the patient” into the
community
. But in 1972 and 1973, California governor Ronald Reagan vetoed two funding
provisions designed to protect these savings for mental health, beginning an ongoing pattern
of funding diversions and shortfalls.
At the same time, many California counties had not
developed extensive mental health programs prior to 1957 and were struggling to cover
the steadily growing outpatient population. Although the philosophy that motivated
deinstitutionalization was sound in principle – the belief that people could be successfully
treated in less restrictive settings at a far lower cost – its implementation left counties with
a clinical burden that was grossly disproportionate to the funding they actually received.....

Further, the irresponsible Initiative of the greedy and shortsighted, you know the ones who have been ruining the country for decades, the people who think --if it can be called that---like you:

Quote

Proposition 13
In 1978, the California state budget entered perilous waters when angry voters passed
Proposition 13, a ballot initiative that capped property taxes. Motivated by concerns about
wasteful state spending, the initiative increased the counties’ financial dependency on the
State at the same time that their responsibility for mental health care surged upward.
Because the measure limited property taxes at both state and county levels, the budgetary
cushion that had previously allowed LA County to implement programs neglected
by the state mental health budget – programs for which the County was forced to
spend beyond its required 10% match to State funds – evaporated. At the State level, the
drop in revenue led to major cuts in mental health allocations.

There you go John, once again do you recall that now?

You have to learn to listen to something other than where ever you glean your information now cause you are invariably wrong--especially anything that happened more than a week ago.

Prop 13 capped Property Tax increases to something like 1% a year while actual property values in both SoCal and NorCal were averaging 24-30% per year... You're a big real estate wheeler dealer, you can see how those gredy fucks wanted it both ways, they want to inflated bubble sales prices but they don't want their taxes to reflect the price they can get...
Greed, and so loonies get kicked out, medicated in "Community clincs " cause it's cheaper....

It's the stingy man who pays the most.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2012 01:38AM by john vanlandingham.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 01:52AM
Follow on on a National viewpoint:
from Wiki
Quote

From 1965 to 1969, $260 million was authorized for community mental health centers.[5] Compared to other government organizations and programs, this number is strikingly low. Unfortunately, the funding drops even further under Richard Nixon (Republigoon) from 1970–1973 with a total of $50.3 million authorized.[5] Even though the funding for community mental health centers was on a steady decline, deinstitutionalization continued into the 1960s and 1970s. The number of state and county mental hospital resident patients in 1950 was 512,501 and by 1989 had decreased to 101,402.{while the US population had grown by 100 million}
This continuing process of deinstitutionalization without adequate alternative resources led the mentally ill into homelessness, jails, and self-medication through the use of drugs or alcohol.[5] In 1975 Congress passed an Act requiring community mental health centers to provide aftercare services to all patients in the hopes of improving recovery rates. In 1980, just five years later, Congress passed the Mental Health Systems Act, which provided federal funding for ongoing support and development of community mental health programs.[5] This Act strengthened the connection between federal, state, and local governments with regards to funding for community mental health services. It was the final result of a long series of recommendations by Jimmy Carter's {Lane's favorite President who single handedly caused all the inflation, exchange rate variations, sneakily increased the price of oil in 1973 by 400%, then doubled it during his own term,and all the unemployment years before he took office; a veritable Proto- Communist Nazi Muslim according to Lane} Mental Health Commission.[4]

Despite this apparent progress, just a year after the Mental Health Systems Act was passed, the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981 was passed. The Omnibus Act was passed by the efforts of the Reagan administration as an effort to reduce domestic spending. The Act rescinded a large amount of the legislation just passed, and the legislation that was not rescinded was almost entirely revamped. It effectively ended federal funding of community treatment for the mentally ill, shifting the burden entirely to individual state governments.[7] Federal funding was now replaced by granting smaller amounts of money to the individual states.[8] In 1977, the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) initiated its Community Support Program (C.S.P.). The C.S.P.'s goal was to shift the focus from psychiatric institutions and the services they offer to networks of support for individual clients

Yeah I recall this, Lane you were what 7? 8 years old then?? You'd be an unusual boy if you did.



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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 12:04PM
I'll jump in here... WTF.

Yeah there are a lot of issues... and I think it's a combination of societal outlook, parental values, and WEAPONS control.

Fist off, as Grant pointed out the move towards 2 income families (for whatever...) has lead to a loss in parental upbringing and TIME with our kids. Everybody knows being a bully is bad, we (the generalized "we"winking smiley just don't have TIME to find out from our kids if they are being bullied or being THE bully. We are more and more putting the incredibly complex and difficult task of imparting societal values on our young ones in the hands of others.

Why do I bring up the latest buzz word "bully", because the bully is someone who marginalizes another. That marginalized kid gets put down, pissed off, and possibly somewhere down the road takes action. If Mom or Dad knew that little Billy was teasing Bobby for being short, fat, stupid, wrong shoes, whatever, (because they had teh time to ask how was Billys day) and said "Billy, how do you think that makes Bobby feel, maybe we should think about how much that hurts Bobby..." They there would be less pissed off Bobby's...

Then there's the whole "protect myself, my kids, my home" F-that. Protect all of us, protect your neighbour, protect their home, their kids, by imparting the observational skills that sees that little Bobby is feeling hurt because sombodies little Tommy is being mean. Step in and step up.

I use guns. I hunt (or I did hunt, haven't in a long time). I learned to hunt from my father and my grandfather. I learned to hunt with a single shot (well actually an over under .22/410). One shot, not 10. Hit your tarket, or don't take the shot. That's humane, that's safe, and it means I don't need a even a 10 shot magazine. Okay, allow 3 shots for birds... cause I know in a fly over I can hit more than one bird. But I only get one tag for deer... so I only really need one bullet.

Hand guns are for one purpose... and we don't need that, that's what we're trying to stop! (unless you're really gonna start hunting zombie's).

Sure, you can build a bomb. But that takes time, and effort, and skill, and in that time, if we're more observant, we can ask Bobby, why are you spending all that time in the shed?

Na I change my mind. Everybody should have guns, really big ones, no bombs, no, actually I want a fighter jet. YEAH that makes the same sense as "being armed for self defense" Everybody should get a fighter jet. That way, not only am I defended from the crazy down the street, I'm defended from the crazy across the pond, and the ones from space!

Fighter jets are the new CCW! YEAH!
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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 01:26PM
I keep waiting for the homemade rockets that are being built in Palestine to bomb Israeli neighborhood to be used here in the US in a domestic attack. You could build one of those for next to nothing using readily available materials and a few hundred in Harbor Freight tools.

We talked about having a bomb club at one point. Then we decided it was probably a bad idea so we just all went to the shop to drink beer while the women were doing a knitting club. Voila, out comes some fireworks, then shows up the SWAT team and about 100 officers surround our 5000 sq ft shop and 15000 lot. Someone called in a gun fight so they showed up in serious force. Thank god we weren't having bomb squad and were instead working on rally cars and drinking beer and letting off a few fireworks. Mitch gave them $1k worth of fireworks he'd picked up on way back from Laughlin and they left without arresting anyone or issuing citations. A few people got cuffed and talked to for a bit but eventually it all was fine. Ironically someone called the women right away but by time they got there the police were gone, road was back open, and it appeared nothing had ever happened.



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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 02:59PM
One of my customers went to fed pen for making bombs and illegal fireworks. Actually had a business out of his home selling fireworks and not the safe and sane kind. I think he did about 3 years or so. Don't know how he got caught.
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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 04:37PM
When smartypants chemists go bad they either get into making drugs or bombs, the bomb ones are really bad news...
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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 09:18PM
http://www.leg.state.or.us/richardson/newsletter/newsletters_2012/newsletter_121712.htm

Interesting article, one part stuck out in particular...

" By sad coincidence a mad-man in China also entered an elementary school last Friday and used a knife to stab 22 children.

In other words, instead of responding to the latest mass murder with calls for more gun-control, the real issue should be ensuring the protection of our children and educators from armed psychopaths. "

Where there's a will, there's a way... Fix the problem, don't take away tools.



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heymagic
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Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 09:35PM
This video is a bit sobering speaking of knives...


Definitely deadly in multiple target attacks.
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Jay
Re: Let's get political. Gun Debate!
December 18, 2012 09:41PM
Aaaaaand it looks like it's confirmed that the asshole in the Clackamas shopping mall encountered a shopper with a cwp and a handgun. Shopper didn't fire due to people behind the target but the target responded by ducking round a corner and offing himself.



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Chronologically, 46...
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